- From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 12:30:09 -0400
- To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
- Cc: public-swd-wg@w3.org
The record of todays' RDF-in-XHTML Task Force discussion is
http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html
A text snapshot follows.
----
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
RDF in XHTML Task Force
19 Mar 2009
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Mar/0120.html
See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2009-03-05
[3] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/19-rdfa-irc
[4] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html
Attendees
Present
Ralph Swick, Mark Birbeck, Shane McCarron, Manu Sporny,
Steven Pemberton, Ben Adida
Regrets
Michael Hausenblas
Chair
Ben
Scribe
Ralph
Contents
* [5]Topics
1. [6]Action Review
2. [7]Primer Aside
3. [8]Test Cases
* [9]Summary of Action Items
_____________________________________________________
<ShaneM> CURIE Javascript:
[10]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/CurieJavascript
[10] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/CurieJavascript
Shane: I had an action for generating CURIEs
Action Review
ACTION: [DONE] Manu to clean up TC 9001, 9002, 9003. [recorded in
[11]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[11] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
Manu: 9001 through 9004 now use identical markup except for how the
prefix is defined
ACTION: [DONE] Manu to create TC for space-separated syntax for
@prefix. [recorded in
[12]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[12] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
Manu: that's test 9004
ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
in [13]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[13] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
ACTION: [PENDING] Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[14] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
ACTION: [PENDING] Manu to look at
[15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008D
ec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html
[16] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
Manu: this was a request to add a note to the document that if Saxon
or RFC2396 is used for relative URI resolution you won't get the
correct result
... I sent a note but want the TF to consider whether this is the
right approach
... the tests in question are already negative tests, which the
original mail didn't realize
... RFC3986 replaces RFC2396
... it appears the URL that is generated in the corner case is
different
... affects test 114
... attribution URL should be to the W3C Web site
<benadida> content is href="../../../../../../../../../../"
Manu: the author of Saxon has said he intends to move to RFC3986 but
that Saxon currently still follows RFC2396
... my proposal is just to document that RDFa follows RFC3986
... adding this note to test case 114 would resolve this issue, I
believe
... add the note in the SPARQL result
Ben: sounds good
ACTION: [PENDING] Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
for Ivan. [recorded in
[17]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[17] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
ACTION: [PENDING] Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
[recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[18] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
ACTION: [PENDING] Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit
about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
[19] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc
ACTION: [PENDING] Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
[recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[20] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
ACTION: [PENDING] Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[21] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
ACTION: [PENDING] Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
[recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[22] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML
namespace [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
[23] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[24] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
Primer Aside
Ben: I think the simplification of the Primer was the right choice
at the time
... but now I think it's falling short of what's needed
... wonder about adding some more advanced material back in
Manu: I fear that the size of the document would put people off
... so a separate Advanced Primer would be better
Ben: Primer can be updated with a reference to a [new] Advanced
Primer
... we're getting some interesting screen casts
... e.g. the Drupal one
... I'd like to see a screen cast on "here's how to add your RDFa
markup and here's how to test that you did it correctly"
<Steven> Go Ben!
<markbirbeck> [25]mark-birbeck/blog/2009/01/rdfa-means-extensibility
[25] http://webbackplane.com/mark-birbeck/blog/2009/01/rdfa-means-extensibility
Test Cases
<msporny> [26]rdfa-test-harness
[26] http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
Manu: my highest priority is to decide on the syntax for @prefix
value
... see design test suite / unapproved
... there are tests for 4 different syntaxes
... we should pick one
Ben: let's try a quick poll, ok?
<markbirbeck> I'm afraid I have a 5th....
<ShaneM> note that in test 9003 the syntax of some prefixes seems
wrong
Ben: in the colon syntax sometimes there's whitespace following the
colon and sometimes not
Manu: intentionally so to generate discussion
Ben: so, let's try polling first with no 'extra' whitespace
<markbirbeck> I forgot that I thought of this the other day...but
what about JSON syntax? Radical, I know, but makes for some
interesting things.
<markbirbeck> e.g.:
<markbirbeck> prefix="xsd: [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#,
dcterms:[28]http://purl.org/dc/terms/, media:
[29]http://purl.org/media#, audio:[30]http://purl.org/media/audio#"
[27] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema
[28] http://purl.org/dc/terms/
[29] http://purl.org/media
[30] http://purl.org/media/audio
<markbirbeck> Note the commas.
<markbirbeck> But also allowed would be:
Ben: 9002 uses colon and semicolon
<ShaneM> ShaneM prefers prefix="PREFIX=URI PREFIX2=URI2"
<markbirbeck> prefix="'xsd':
'[31]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#',
'dcterms':'[32]http://purl.org/dc/terms/', 'media':
'[33]http://purl.org/media#',
'audio':'[34]http://purl.org/media/audio#'"
[31] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#'
[32] http://purl.org/dc/terms/'
[33] http://purl.org/media#'
[34] http://purl.org/media/audio#'
<markbirbeck> Note the quotes.
Ben: 9001 uses colon and whitespace
option 1 - from 9001: prefix="xsd:
[35]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#
dcterms:[36]http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media:
[37]http://purl.org/media# audio:[38]http://purl.org/media/audio#"
[35] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema
[36] http://purl.org/dc/terms/
[37] http://purl.org/media
[38] http://purl.org/media/audio
option 2 - from 9002: prefix="xsd:
[39]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#;
dcterms:[40]http://purl.org/dc/terms/; media:
[41]http://purl.org/media# ; audio:
[42]http://purl.org/media/audio#;"
[39] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#;
[40] http://purl.org/dc/terms/;
[41] http://purl.org/media
[42] http://purl.org/media/audio#;
option 3 - from 9003:
prefix="xsd=[43]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms =
[44]http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media=[45]http://purl.org/media# audio
= [46]http://purl.org/media/audio#"
[43] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema
[44] http://purl.org/dc/terms/
[45] http://purl.org/media
[46] http://purl.org/media/audio#%3E
option 4 - from 9004: prefix="xsd
[47]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema# dcterms
[48]http://purl.org/dc/terms/ media [49]http://purl.org/media# audio
[50]http://purl.org/media/audio#"
[47] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema
[48] http://purl.org/dc/terms/
[49] http://purl.org/media
[50] http://purl.org/media/audio
<msporny> I think focusing on simplicity buys us a great deal here,
Mark - which is why I'd like to stay away from CSS-like and
JSON-like syntax.
<msporny> HTML5 folks would be all over the "complex syntax" that
we've chosen
<markbirbeck> I disagree.
<markbirbeck> Having a breaking character between pairs is not
complex!
Ralph: I think 9004 would generate objections w.r.t. future
extensibility
<ShaneM> markbirbeck: not between pairs - having the same character
as a delimiter and a spacing character is the confusion point I
think.
Mark: the alternating list ala 9005 is bad
... as is a syntax that doesn't delimit pairs
... we shouldn't try to be simple when authors use more complex
syntaxes every day
... I was warming to a CSS-like syntax but then it occurred to me
that a lot of people are familiar with JSON format
Ben: nested quotes ala the JSON notation bothers me
Mark: that was the second alternative
... first JSON-like alternative doesn't have nested quotes but does
use comma to separate the pairs
<benadida> rel="dc:license cc:license"
Ben: for teaching this to folks, we're already seeing
space-separated properties in @rel
... for groking a syntax, I like similarity [with @rel]
... e.g. 9001
... though I think the extra spaces [in 9001] would confuse things
<markbirbeck> xsd:h...
Ben: 9001 mixes in some extra spaces
Mark: so prefix:value SPACE prefix:value ... ?
Ben: yes
<Steven> I like the use of "="
Mark: this looks too much like URLs
<Steven> because it reads like it is
Mark: I can live with 9002
... in 9003 I'd want to disallow the spaces around '='
Ben: yes, we're thinking of space as a separator
<benadida> med:ia/image
Ben: so no space around '='
Mark: I don't see a point in throwing errors when there's extra
space, e.g., around '='
... the syntax should be forgiving
Ben: let's get a feeling for where we stand now
Mark: include comma-separated colon pairs
<benadida> Option 5: Mark's JSON-like
Manu: a=b and a = b are both perfectly parseable without additional
separate between the pairs
... the additional comma or semicolon definitively separates the
pairs
Steven: both comma and semicolon can be part of URLs
<Steven> [51]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#;
[51] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#;
<Steven> is a valid URL
Ben: poll is not a commitment
<msporny> +1 for prefix="a <SEPARATOR> b <PAIR_SEPARATOR> x
<SEPARATOR> y"
Ralph: prefer option 3 '='
<ShaneM> More importantly...
[52]http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema?asd,abc;def is also a legal url
[52] http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema?asd
Manu: prefer any option that has a separator and a pair separator
Manu: so I'd be ok with 5 (and 2)
Shane: prefer option 3
Steven: prefer option 3
Ben: prefer 1, can live with 3
Mark: prefer 5, can live with 2
... can't live with 3
Manu: can't live with 3; saying space is disallowed is harsh
Ben: could allow space around the '='
Manu: but '=' can appear in URLs
Shane: '=' in URLs wouldn't break parsing
Mark: I see no need to create another syntax within values
<markbirbeck> x="y=z"
Mark: and '=' is so familiar for setting the attribute value that I
think we're asking for trouble using it inside values
<ShaneM> x="Y:Z"
Ben: that seems to argue for option 1
... it would also be quite new to use JSON syntax inside an
attribute value
Shane: the alternating list pattern is use in xml:schemaLocation
Ben: yep, I remember that pattern there -- and when the list gets
long it becomes very confusing
... so I count that as an existing bad pattern
Manu: worth floating this to mail?
<markbirbeck> +1 to Ben
Ben: mail on the rdfa TF list ok
... next meeting in 2 weeks; on 2 April
Summary of Action Items
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
in [53]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
[54]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to look at
[55]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008D
ec/0037.html about resolving relative URIs [recorded in
[56]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
for Ivan. [recorded in
[57]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
[recorded in
[58]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to review reasoning on setting explicit
about="" on HEAD and BODY [recorded in
[59]http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
[recorded in
[60]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
[61]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
[recorded in
[62]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML
namespace [recorded in
[63]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
[64]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[53] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[54] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
[55] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0037.html
[56] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
[57] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
[58] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[59] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/18-rdfa-irc
[60] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
[61] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
[62] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
[63] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
[64] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
[DONE] ACTION: Manu to clean up TC 9001, 9002, 9003. [recorded in
[65]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[DONE] ACTION: Manu to create TC for space-separated syntax for
@prefix. [recorded in
[66]http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[65] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
[66] http://www.w3.org/2009/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
[End of minutes]
_____________________________________________________
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Received on Thursday, 19 March 2009 16:30:27 UTC