- From: Steven Pemberton <Steven.Pemberton@cwi.nl>
- Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 20:21:17 +0200
- To: "Ralph R. Swick" <swick@w3.org>, public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
- Cc: public-swd-wg@w3.org
I also sent regrets. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jun/0012.html Steven On Thu, 04 Jun 2009 20:15:54 +0200, Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org> wrote: > The minutes of today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force meeting are now > available as > > http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html > > A text snapshot follows. > > ---- > > [1]W3C > > [1] http://www.w3.org/ > > RDF in XHTML Task Force > > 04 Jun 2009 > > [2]Agenda > > [2] > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2009Jun/0010.html > > See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2009-05-28 > > [3] http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-irc > [4] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html > > Attendees > > Present > Shane McCarron, Manu Sporny, Sam Ruby, Ralph Swick > > Regrets > Ben Adida, Michael Hausenblas, Mark Birbeck > > Chair > Manu > > Scribe > Ralph, Manu > > Contents > > * Topics > 1. Action Review > 2. issue-214 > 3. Copyright for W3C Test Suites > 4. Discussion order for HTML+RDFa issues > 5. Start "Target of RDFa Processing Rules" discussion > * Summary of Action Items > _____________________________________________________ > > Action Review > > ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ben to author wiki page with charter template > for RDFa IG. Manu to provide support where needed. [recorded in > [12]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] > > [12] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action10 > > <msporny> [13]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-ig-charter > > [13] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-ig-charter > > ACTION: [DONE] Manu to go through and categorize issues and > requirements that we should address going forward. [recorded in > [14]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] > > [14] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12 > > <msporny> > [15]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-in-html-issues#RDFa_Task_Force_Discus > sion_Order > > [15] > http://rdfa.info/wiki/Rdfa-in-html-issues#RDFa_Task_Force_Discussion_Order > > ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ralph make a request for an RDFa issue tracker > instance [recorded in > [16]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] > > [16] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action11 > > ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" > with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded > in [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] > > [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12 > > ACTION: [CONTINUES] Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases > for Ivan. [recorded in > [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] > > [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09 > > ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning > [recorded in > [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] > > [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12 > > ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff > [recorded in > [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] > > [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11 > > ACTION: [CONTINUES] Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in > [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] > > [21] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13 > > ACTION: [CONTINUES] Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa > Wiki [recorded in > [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] > > [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14 > > ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML > namespace [recorded in > [23]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] > > [23] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01 > > ACTION: [CONTINUES] Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in > [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] > > [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15 > > issue-214 > > <Ralph> [25]issue-214 > > [25] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/214 > > Ralph: This issue was a comment that came during the SKOS Candidate > Rec period. > ... The WG decided that it was more of an editorial question for > RDFa TF to consider. > ... There has been a long thread over several years, Ben's aware of > the thread... > > Ralph: We should consider providing community advice in the case > where the same URI might be a piece of an RDF vocabulary or a target > in an HTML document. > ... In the case where the mimetype of the document is HTML, or > application/rdf+xml > ... in the case of RDFa, it's not so clear that an application can > disambiguate between the two types of documents. > ... You should not use the same URI for the name in an HTML document > as well as a term in an RDF vocabulary. > ... People shouldn't do <p id="foo" about="#foo"> > > ShaneM: I disagree > ... The whole point of RDFa is to embed things in this way. > ... I have a URI, which is interpreted in the context of the HTTP > request header. > ... A semantic web application will follow-your-nose that should > take you to the definition of a vocabulary item. > ... I'm going to prefer xml+rdf > ... from a content negotiation perspective, the server should send > back what the requester wants. > ... If the request is rdf+xml, then it should extract the triples > from the XHTML document and send those back as rdf+xml. > > Ralph: Interesting point. > ... The old advice might not matter as much anymore? > ... Eric Prudhommeaux might have something to say about this. > > Ralph: there might be use cases where the subject of a triple might > well want to be a particular bit of HTML markup > > Manu: might be something to handle in a validator > > Manu: people might do id='foo' and about='foo' when they're doing > vocabulary authoring > ... it's nice to be able to drop a vocabulary term into a Web > browser and see a document > > Ralph: How can we say something about the ID "foo" <p id="foo" > about="#foo"> and not the about="#foo" > > Shane: and XML requires something of type ID in order for the > fragment to be valie > ... in general, id='foo' about='foo' always occurs when you want to > bind triples to a block in a document > ... particularly in definitions of terms > ... when referring to a local definition of a term you'd have an ID > and you'd bind to it using @about > ... you might also refer to it in @resource > > Manu: maybe we should create a Wiki page and develop a best practice > in this area > > ACTION: Manu create a wiki page for discussion of issue-214 > [recorded in > [26]http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] > > Copyright for W3C Test Suites > > Shane: looking for advice on what are acceptable test suite > copyrights > > Manu: specifically, is the MIT license sufficient? > > ACTION: Ralph find the statement on test suite copyright [recorded > in [27]http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] > > <rubys> in general, MIT licensed code can be pulled into almost any > codebase; the reverse is not necessarily true > > Discussion order for HTML+RDFa issues > > <msporny> > [28]http://rdfa.info/wiki/rdfa-in-html-issues#RDFa_Task_Force_Discus > sion_Order > > [28] > http://rdfa.info/wiki/rdfa-in-html-issues#RDFa_Task_Force_Discussion_Order > > Manu: I'd taken action to propose a discussion order > > Sam: suggest moving " Requirement: RDFa signalling mechanism for > XHTML+RDFa, HTML+RDFa, and how does mime-type affect that > mechanism?" higher > ... figure out what the signalling mechanism is > ... html served as text/xml is interpreted differently by different > browsers > > Manu: propose to move the signalling discussion after "target of > RDFa processing rules" and before "Do we need to cut features from > RDFa to support HTML+RDFa?" > > Shane: fine with me > ... some of these items have been raised in email but I'm not > persuaded they're really issues > > Manu: so move "RDFa signalling mechanism" to 2nd position > > Ralph: ok with me > > <rubys> if they aren't really issues, they should be able to be > disposed of quickly. > > Start "Target of RDFa Processing Rules" discussion > > <msporny> > [29]http://rdfa.info/wiki/rdfa-in-html-issues#The_target_of_RDFa_pro > cessing_rules > > [29] > http://rdfa.info/wiki/rdfa-in-html-issues#The_target_of_RDFa_processing_rules > > Manu: question is "on what do the RDFa processing rules operate?" > ... e.g. on a DOM structure [or not] > ... now we're trying to explain how this works across all languages > ... and generate the same triples across all document [types] > ... gets tricky when accounting for serialization issues > ... goal is to find a set of rules that works on a parse tree or an > abstract syntax tree rather than on a DOM > ... so define the rules in a way not based on serialization of a > specific language > > Shane: Mark has a clever way of thinking about this > ... and is very persuasive :) > ... as I understand it, Mark's model is that RDFa is at the > application layer so whatever the underlying layer provides to the > application is what should be worked on > ... this solves the RDFa specification problem but doesn't solve the > "I want the same triples when I give the same document content to > different things" > ... I don't see how we can control the structure of the _input_ to > RDFa in a meaningful way > ... will happen differently in legacy browsers, HTML5, new browsers, > etc. > ... I'm not optimistic that we'll find a way to guarantee the same > triples everywhere > > Sam: if we can find a subset that _does_ give the same triples and > note the other cases with a recommendation not to to those > ... can't assume that the consumer respects the well-formed input > requirement > ... this requirement is routinely ignored > > Shane: ignored by user agents but not by tool chain processors > > Sam: wise to accept that some people will be processing this in > browsers and give advice on what won't work there > > Shane: I do think we can restrict the language so that it has more > predictable behaviours under different processing models > > Sam: e.g. if a single document has two names that differ only in > case, that's probably wierd and don't do it > > Shane: yep, we just never considered that case in our prior > discussions > > Manu: the test cases put on the mailing list are really good > starting points > ... we should be clear about what model the RDFa rules are operating > on but I do not see a reason to strip out any rules > ... Mark's position is that we can't control the input to the RDFa > processing rules > ... we can't control how things get put into a DOM; that's in the > domain of the HTML WG > ... so the RDFa processing rules ought to be restated in terms of > _some_ incoming model > ... RDFa might be used in something that has nothing to do with a > DOM > ... not a good idea to restrict RDFa to just a DOM > ... if you run an HTML document through two different processors, > one producing a DOM and the other not then I don't see how we can > guarantee in all cases to produce the same triples > > <rubys> I agree with DOM as the answer to question #1... the problem > is that Drupal is producing content with RDFa, and depending on the > user agent, it may be processed differently. If you look at > Phillip's tests there will be cases where they answers will differ, > and some of these can't be solved. In some cases, the answer may be > "don't do that". Example: if you define an XML literal and serve the > content as text/html, be sure that you don't define any content that > HTML5 processing rules will reorder or change in a way that can't be > addressed by the parser. > > Manu: they _might_ be the same in some cases but I don't think we > should try to guarantee the same triples in all cases > > Shane: from personal experience, some of our tests produced foreign > elements that were removed from the DOM tree I was handed > > Shane: I don't have control over this; I can only work on what I'm > handed > > Manu: can we come up with an example that shows how a well-formed > document would generate different triples? > > Shane: comes up when embedding foreign stuff, e.g. SVG -- the SVG > simply doesn't show up in the DOM > ... there could be RDFa annotations on the SVG but I've lost them > > <msporny> Thanks for joining us Sam :) > > <msporny> and for your input. > > Shane: the XML literal case may well be the most glaring example > ... there are several ways to address this and I don't have a strong > preference for which we pick > ... I sort-of like Mark's suggestion to change the default to not be > an XML literal > ... so you'd only produce an XML literal in a triple when you > explicitly ask for one > > Manu: the side-effect of making it not automatically an XML literal > is that it will process the content > ... e.g. <spam about='foo'> inside the content would cause triples > to be generated > > Shane: that's probably a corner case > ... easier to change behavior sooner than later > > Manu: the reason for a change is to make XML literals the same > between HTML and XHTML > ... but there's a parallel discussion suggesting that it may be OK > for the triples to differ given different input > > Shane: the core issue here is whether it makes any sense to generate > XML literals in a non-XML context > > Summary of Action Items > > [NEW] ACTION: Manu create a wiki page for discussion of issue-214 > [recorded in > [30]http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] > [NEW] ACTION: Ralph find the statement on test suite copyright > [recorded in > [31]http://www.w3.org/2009/06/04-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] > > [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to author wiki page with charter template for > RDFa IG. Manu to provide support where needed. [recorded in > [32]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action10] > [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" > with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded > in [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] > [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases > for Ivan. [recorded in > [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] > [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning > [recorded in > [35]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] > [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff > [recorded in > [36]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] > [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in > [37]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] > [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki > [recorded in > [38]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] > [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph make a request for an RDFa issue tracker > instance [recorded in > [39]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] > [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML > namespace [recorded in > [40]http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] > [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in > [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] > > [32] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action10 > [33] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12 > [34] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09 > [35] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12 > [36] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11 > [37] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13 > [38] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14 > [39] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action11 > [40] http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#action01 > [41] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15 > > [DONE] ACTION: Manu to go through and categorize issues and > requirements that we should address going forward. [recorded in > [42]http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] > > [42] http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12 > > [End of minutes] > _____________________________________________________ > > > Minutes formatted by David Booth's [43]scribe.perl version 1.135 > ([44]CVS log) > $Date: 2009/06/04 18:14:03 $ > > [43] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm > [44] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/ > >
Received on Thursday, 4 June 2009 18:22:07 UTC