- From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:19:01 -0400
- To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org, public-swd-wg@w3.org
Minutes from today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon [1] are
ready for review.
[1] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html
Text snapshot attached.
----
RDF in XHTML TaskForce
17 Jul 2008
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0044.html
See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2008-07-10
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc
[4] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html
Attendees
Present
Shane McCarron, Manu Sporny, Ralph Swick, Jeremy Carroll
Regrets
Michael Hausenblas, Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck, Steven Pemberton
Chair
Manu
Scribe
Ralph
Contents
* Topics
1. Action Review
2. HTML4, HTML5, and CR plans
3. RDFa Best Practices
4. Misc
* Summary of Action Items
_____________________________________________________
<markbirbeck> I'll be on IRC for a little while, but have to leave
early to get kids.
-> [11]Open (CR) comments
[11] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/products/2
<ShaneM> Have people seen [12]umbel.org ?
[12] http://www.umbel.org/
Action Review
ACTION: Ben to talk to Allan about CR ISSUE-122 [recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[CONTINUES]
[13] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
ACTION: Jeremy to write up TQ's contribution for impl report and
wiki [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
[CONTINUES]
[14] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16
Jeremy: I've written the report, will post soon
<JeremyCarroll> [15]current draft report
[15] http://www.topquadrant.com/w3c/RDFa/
ACTION: [DONE] Manu to write up current issues with information
resource vs. actual resource with regard to Audio RDF vocabulary.
[recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[16] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
<msporny> [17]uri-vs-resource-ambiguity-problem
[17] http://rdfa.info/wiki/uri-vs-resource-ambiguity-problem
ACTION: Michael to rewrite and extend
[18]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials for RSS (maybe with seq)
[recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
[CONTINUES]
[18] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials
[19] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08
ACTION: [DONE] Shane to make ISSUE-121 editorial change and report
back [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[20] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
ACTION: Shane respond to commentor for ISSUE-121 [recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[CONTINUES]
[22] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform
transferred to W3C [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
[CONTINUES]
[23] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness +
EARL [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[CONTINUES]
[24] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
Ralph: do we consider this important enough to keep at this point?
Manu: they wanted to get it for the implementation report
... it was going to make Michael and Ben's life easier to create the
implementation report for Javascript
<Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention TQ's conformance
statement
Jeremy: while writing the report for TopQuadrant, I noted the
following:
... any advice on anything better to say?
<JeremyCarroll> The conformance of the RDFa input depends on the
conformance of the RDFa parser being used, currently Fabien Gandon's
transform. Therefore we do not submit a separate report.
<JeremyCarroll> It is not clear what conformance tests we should do
on the RDFa editing functionality. As is, the normal process of
software maintenance should ensure that all output from the RDFa
editor is legal RDFa input, with the expected triples, and most
reasonable RDFa input can be produced with the editors. The
autocomplete facility will currently generate qnames rather than
CURIEs, since the other RDF formats currently do not use CURIEs. If
and when other RDF
Shane: QNames are technically a subset of CURIEs
... so you _are_ generating CURIEs
Jeremy: just a question about providing an implementation report for
RDFa consumers
Manu: for the implementation report, we have a set of
implementations that run against the RDFa test harness
... if an RDFa parser is setup correctly it can be [automatically]
run against the test harness
... so the expectation is to say whether or not you pass each test
Jeremy: the existing tests are for RDFa parsers. TopQuadrant
integrates parsers written by others
... for the editing functionality it's hard to know what to say
Manu: my understanding is that the implementation report planned to
only cover parser tests
Ralph: perhaps TopQuadrant could show how to use its tools to
generate the test examples (or their equivalent)
Jeremy: nice idea
Manu: yes, would be nice to describe a full round-trip; generating
then parsing RDFa
Shane: in the spec we only define conformance for _parsers_
... in the implementation report we can have sections that talk
about other supporting tools
... so, e.g., user agents; IE, Opera, FireFox
Ralph: yes, for example it would be good to mention SearchMonkey,
even though they don't yet support all of RDFa
Shane: it's also good to document that browsers don't break when
they're fed RDFa
... though we don't actually have any user agent conformance clauses
ACTION: [DONE] Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
[25] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
Manu: these are 1-1 mappable to the microformat vocabulary
... Toby Inkster has written a tool to intersperce RDFa in haudio
microformat
ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[CONTINUES]
[26] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[CONTINUES]
[27] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[CONTINUES]
[28] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded
in [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[CONTINUES]
[29] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
Ralph: I hand-wrote a bunch of comments on that last week, never got
to enter them :(
ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
[30]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[CONTINUES]
[30] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
Manu: there's been a lot of work in the SIOC vocabulary that has to
do with posts and the authors of posts
... SIOC is meant for bloggers and folks who post news
Shane: regarding haudio, Manu mentioned generalized media RDF. Is
there a video RDF?
Manu: yes, there's a base vocabulary for media on which the audio
and video vocabularies build
... media builds off of Dublin Core
Shane: for example, how might one annotate IMDB with RDFa
Manu: this vocabulary is intended to help with that; marking up
television episodes, all the actors, grips, etc.
... we have 80-85% coverage of the use cases we've found so far
... we've looked at a large number of Web sites that publish this
sort of data
... ties in with BBC comments on non-accessibility of microformats
data, esp. the date format
... the accessibility problem is that screen readers attempt to read
out data that's only intended for the machines
Jeremy: who's the BBC contact?
Manu:I've been chatting with Michael Smethurst at the BBC about
Audio/Video/Media RDFa
HTML4, HTML5, and CR plans
Manu: we've been seeing more traffic on the lists noting that it's
nice to have XHTML support but what about HTML4 and HTML5
... we've pointed out that the markup won't break HTML4/5 tools
... but the users want validation
Ralph:Well, HTML4 doesn't have a working group
... HTML5 has it in their charter to support extensibility for RDFa
plus some others
<Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to note this issue should go
through to ac review and to
Jeremy: this issue of the more extensive ambition of the RDFa folk
won't go away
... we do want RDFa used with HTML4
... the conversations on the mailing list show that some just want
to get the job done while others are concerned about conformance
... I think we have to acknowledge that the discussion continues
though we've made a particular choice and it's the right one
... we've specified what can be specified correctly while
acknowledging that some will use it with HTML4
... the tone of the primer does not rule out RDFa+HTML4 even though
we can't specify it
... we know that _in practice_ RDFa+HTML4 is usable even though it
won't validate
Manu: could we create something that would work with the W3C
validator?
Shane: the W3C validator uses NSGMLS through a perl interface
(opensp)
... opensp in SGML mode
... validating a document against a DTD
... it will do this for any DTD that it is aware of
Manu: could we create a DTD for RDFa+HTML4?
Shane: SGML mode does not understand @xmlns
... so we'd need a different way to define prefixes or a way to
persuade the validator to ignore @xmlns errors in certain types of
documents
Ralph: we don't actually have a charter to do anything except XHTML
... so we're on weak ground to ask for any changes in the validator
Shane: what would be the best way for us to support RDFa in an HTML4
environment? Does it make sense to push @xmlns into this environment
or should we create another prefixing mechanism?
Manu: it would be really nice to not have to change anything
... or add a flag to parsers indicating whether they're processing
HTML4/5 and find a different attribute than @xmlns
<markbirbeck> Hey guys...really sorry I'm not there. However, I
think the easiest way to get out of the @xmlns bind is via CURIEs,
and not RDFa.
<markbirbeck> Will have to explain more either next week, or on the
list.
<markbirbeck> (Unless I work on a strawman with Shane....)
Manu: everything other than @xmlns maps cleanly
Shane: yes, everything else works fine
Jeremy: how many actual HTML4 tools will have a problem with RDfa?
... the validator doesn't matter in the big picture
Manu: the validators matter for adoption
<ShaneM> I like the idea of @ns
Manu: authors don't want to hear complaints from their bosses about
documents that don't validate
Jeremy: so just ask the validator to ignore XML namespaces
Shane: I think there is already a control for this
... when it's validating in XML mode via a DTD it has to ignore
namespace errors
<msporny> Mark - it would be really great to hear your thoughts on
this (on list, or via the wiki)
<ShaneM> @ns="prefix URI prefix2 URI..."
Shane: I already have the code to patch the W3C validator to do this
... but other authoring tools also have 'validate me' buttons
... we'd want those other validators to also work
<markbirbeck> Manu...really sorry for absence. Speak to you all
soon...gotta go. :)
Shane: but sure, we can tell people it's OK to put RDFa in HTML
Manu: we can't say there's backing from any W3C process but we can
point to a starting place
Ralph: I think the HTML5 spec will have to address something like
namespaces
... we should not get out ahead of that
... whether they accept @xmlns or not, we need to wait
Shane: I disgree; we've overloaded @xmlns and that's a mistake
... it's a convenience but in the real world @xmlns is not the way
to extend grammars
... if HTML5 does not define @xmlns we could still do something else
and HTML5 wouldn't care
... vocabulary extention needs something other than XML namespaces
Manu: the issue we're up against is how to stuff this into
validators
Shane: I like the @ns= idea
Manu: it would be nice to have something that shows people how to
put RDFa into HTML4/5 and get it validated
... would the W3C object?
Ralph: no one moderates what we put in our wiki :)
RDFa Best Practices
Manu: it's becoming evident that there are right ways and wrong ways
to use RDFa vocabularies
... for example, I wasn't aware that the Dublin Core vocabulary is
now a legacy vocabulary and we should really be using [31]DC Terms
... would be nice to have a tool that reminds people about current
best practices
... like a lint for RDFa
... suggestions for improving markup or flagging mistakes
[31] http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/
<Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss lint for rdfa/xhtml+rdfa
Shane: there's a validator side-project that has a framework for
doing this sort of thing
... I'm certain that Olivier would welcome our help to do this
... I'll even volunteer
... the tricky part will be deciding the rules
... the tool is very good about suggesting how you should have done
X or Y
... it was written to support the Appendix C validation of HTML
Manu: first thing is to come up with some best practices
... document these in the wiki
... when we get 10 or 15 we could roll them into the tool
ACTION: Manu: Start Best Practices Section on the rdfa.info wiki
[recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
Shane: makes sense
Misc
Shane: I'm especially interested in feedback on my post "[33]Re:
RDFa Primer comment"
... we need to have a consistent message from this Task Force
[33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0048.html
Manu: agree
... and we'll have to do more work on HTML4/5 before saying anything
[adjourned]
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Manu: Start Best Practices Section on the rdfa.info
wiki [recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
[NEW] ACTION: Shane respond to commentor for ISSUE-121 [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL
transform transferred to W3C [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test
harness + EARL [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to talk to Allan about CR ISSUE-122 [recorded
in [38]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to write up TQ's contribution for impl
report and wiki [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
[recorded in
[41]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
[42]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
[recorded in
[43]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to rewrite and extend
[44]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials for RSS (maybe with seq)
[recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[PENDING] ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
[47]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[36] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
[37] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
[38] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
[39] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16
[40] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
[41] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[42] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
[43] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[44] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials
[45] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08
[46] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
[47] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[DONE] ACTION: Manu to write up current issues with information
resource vs. actual resource with regard to Audio RDF vocabulary.
[recorded in
[48]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[DONE] ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in
[49]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
[DONE] ACTION: Shane to make ISSUE-121 editorial change and report
back [recorded in
[50]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[48] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
[49] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
[50] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
[End of minutes]
_____________________________________________________
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Received on Thursday, 17 July 2008 16:19:44 UTC