W3C

RDF Data Access weekly

4 Sep 2007

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
AndyS, chimezie, Orri, iv_an_ru, EricP, LeeF, Souri
Regrets
Chair
LeeF
Scribe
LeeF

Contents


<scribe> ACTION: EricP to publish xml format CR pending OK of the results schema [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action01]

<scribe> ACTION: LeeF to solicit endpoints for HTTP and SOAP implementations of the SPARQL protocol [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action02]

<scribe> ACTION: Orri and Ivan to try the results XML schema and report back the results [DROPPED] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action03]

<scribe> ACTION: Eric+Andy to identify and collect mf:requires URIs and put in documentation [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action04]

<scribe> ACTION: ericP to answer "EBV of invalid numeric literals" email from Arjohn [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action05]

<scribe> ACTION: ericP to incorporate text to fix EBV of illformed numeric literals bug in spec [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action06]

<scribe> ACTION: ericP to poke IETF folks about registering SPARQL media types (esp. application/sparql-query) [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action07]

<scribe> ACTION: ericP to write explanatory text saying that, like xsd:inteter and xsd:dateTime, the relative order of simple literals and xsd:strings is not defined here [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action08]

<AndyS> I looked at the syntax tests and indeed begee's comments all looked right.

convene

minutes from last week: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/att-0115/28-dawg-minutes.html

Minutes from last week: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/att-0115/28-dawg-minutes.html

Proposed: approve last week's minutes

ericP: looks good

resolved to approve last week's minutes

next meeting: 11 Sep, same time and place

next meeting's goal: look at draft implementation report, discuss what needs to be done to it to show interoperable implementations

action items

LeeF: Status of IETF poking, given goal of PR by end of month

ericP: will look into how to manage schedule

<iv_an_ru> (Or my knowledge of schema is too poor to get a subtle bug).

query language test suite issues

LeeF: Do we need versioning for new test suite version?

ericP: we know most of the people already, and have to lean on the others anyway (for incomplete results), so don't think we need to version

<iv_an_ru> IMHO it's enough to place it in different path on W3C site.

AndyS: does EARL have a date of the test run?

<iv_an_ru> OK, I can accomulate different versions in the test service. It let choose the suite to run.

<group finds dc:date on each test run>

AndyS: Could use dc:date information for versioning

<iv_an_ru> dc:dateTime could be enough.

-> negative syntax tests from Benjamin

1) group graph pattern was not closed

2) undefined foaf prefix

3) same problem

4) http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql4/syn-bad-UNION-breaks-BGP.rq

<ericP> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/SPARQL?lang=perl&text=%23+Tokenizing+matters.%0D%0A%23+%22longest+token+rule%22+means+this+isn%27t+a+%22%3C%22+and+%22%26%26%22%0D%0APREFIX+%3A+++%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fexample%2Fns%23%3E%0D%0ASELECT+*+WHERE%0D%0A%7B+FILTER+%28%3Fx%3C%3Fa%26%26%3Fb%3E%3Fy%29+%7D%0D%0A&action=validate+text

<AndyS> Also wrong: syntax-pat-01.rq

<AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql1/syntax-pat-01.rq

AndyS: Above test has an invalid URI

<AndyS> Has illegl URI : http:/example, not http://example

PROPOSED: Approve the 4 syntax tests from Benjamin, as fixed by Andy, modulo comments added by Eric

ericP seconds

resolved

PROPOSED: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/syntax-sparql1/syntax-pat-0{1-4}.rq be reapproved with fixed URIs in PREFIX clause

AndyS seconds

resolved

<scribe> ACTION: LeeF to update approval information on all tests approved and re-approved today [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action09]

-> 3 new sameTerm tests

ARQ, Algae, Glitter all pass

<iv_an_ru> Yes, I'm online.

<chimezie> I haven't run those tests yet

<iv_an_ru> We do not pass all

<iv_an_ru> We will neve pass all, due to intentional deviations from SPARQL spec.

<AndyS> This is just for the 3 new sameTerm tests?

PROPOSED: Approve the 3 sameTerm tests added by Eric (ref: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0110.html )

<iv_an_ru> I've not yet implemented sameterm.

<iv_an_ru> But I will, so let's approve it.

ericP seconds

resolved

-> invalid turtle data et al. from Arjohn

-> AndyS claims to have fixed them

Eyeballing http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/dataset/dataset-11.ttl

Used to have whitespace separated brackets ( [ ] )

<iv_an_ru> who cares, frankly speaking....

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data-r2/i18n/normalization-01.ttl

PROPOSED: Reapprove all tests that use the data files mentioned in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JulSep/0114.html

chimezie seconds

resolved

-> Andy's latest on the timezone issue

-> Arjohn on timezone issues

AndyS: To compare two dates, compare their initial points (as per F&O), implicitly turn them into dateTime
... dateTimes are compared when their is and isn't a timezone
... using a worst case comparison

Andy's proposal is to fix the results for open-world/date-01

both tests are mf:requires <http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#date>

they also mf:requires mf:xsd-date-eq-xsd-dateTime

<AndyS> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#dateTime-order

<iv_an_ru> SPARQL-to-SQL front ends don't like non-deterministic behaviour so they will elect different timezones :(

<AndyS> http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#func-dateTime-equal

<iv_an_ru> No datetimes w/o timezones in most of SQL servers.

<AndyS> Their example is "2000-01-01T12:00:00 <> 1999-12-31T23:00:00Z" is "indeterminate" (their word)

<iv_an_ru> Maybe we should be able to specify via SPARQL query protocol: calculate this assuming the specified timezone for all timezoneless constants in query text.

ericP: could add editorial text that there might be a local timezone in effect that affects interpretation of dates

AndyS: might not need it since we rely on F&O text and subsidiaries

<scribe> ACTION: LeeF to note mf:requires of extension points when emailing out update to test suite [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action10]

<discussion - probably should leave date-1 as an unapproved test, as it's an extension test anyway>

(meeting extended for 30 minutes)

-> AndyS on <=

ericP: I think that's consistent with XPath/XQuery

AndyS: They define their <= slightly differently, so it's not the same

-> operator table

issue is "1"^^my:int <= "1"^^my:int

which right now is a type error

<AndyS> so the issues arises because the defn of <= says "numeric-equals or numeric-less-than" and not ...

<AndyS> "any equal or numeric-less-than" i.e. we jumped to numerci-equals and not use our own equals (=)

A <= B

RDF Terms

<AndyS> logical-or is our own || operator

A = B || A < B

<iv_an_ru> Can we violate transitivity of '<' if we use a mix of types?

<Souri> error || true (or in other order) => what?

<AndyS> It is bizaar is A = B and then A <= B is an error

<iv_an_ru> I'd say true

<AndyS> Souri - see http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25.html#evaluation

"""

Change the test from:

FILTER ( ?v1 <= ?v2 || ?v1 > ?v2 )

to:

FILTER ( ?v1 = ?v2 || ?v1 < ?v2 || ?v1 > ?v2 )

"""

<AndyS> That is acceptable.

<iv_an_ru> I guess taht we're no in the state when any change is critical. Finally, we do not add run-time errors to existing code if we replace <= with < || = .

<iv_an_ru> If some existing code return results it has high chances to continue returning results.

<chimezie> we would need to do the same for the other operators as well if we changed the spec, right? i.e., add entries for <= as well as >=

Orri: Avoid going to LC

Souri: not too strong feelings, avoid LC is a flash point, go with group consensus

AndyS: Change the test to be explicit about what it's testing for

ericP: change the test

chimezie: change the test

<iv_an_ru> No strong opinion. Let's go to LC and start SPARQL 2.0 with SPARUL and other extensions :)

<iv_an_ru> but change the test first.

PROPOSED: Change open-world/open-cmp-02.rq from "FILTER ( ?v1 <= ?v2 || ?v1 > ?v2 )" to "FILTER ( ?v1 = ?v2 || ?v1 < ?v2 || ?v1 > ?v2 )"

ericP seconds

resolved

Souri: suggests putting ?v1 = ?v2 in the middle to emphasize that order doesn't matter

PROPOSED: To update the test suite with all changes from today's telecon, and re-advertise to the world

<ericP> second

<iv_an_ru> agree

resolved

implementation report status

<AndyS> Test open-cmp-02; Changed to "FILTER ( ?v1 < ?v2 || ?v1 = ?v2 || ?v1 > ?v2 )" and test results corrected

ericP: i have data from test results and queries that look at them

<scribe> ACTION: ericP to have first cut of shiny implementation report by 11 Sep [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action11]

test service

<scribe> ACTION: ericP to try to produce a diff from CR to current editor's draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action12]

<iv_an_ru> (I'm trying to install the service on publicly available host ATM. It's ugly but at least it demonstrates our own mismatches with the spec.)

<iv_an_ru> In addition we have one i18n issue.

<iv_an_ru> ATM I'm testing it with sparql.org and our own hosts.

LeeF: Can we publish a list of tests that it doesn't handle right?

Orri: Yes

<scribe> ACTION: Orri and Ivan to publish URL to test service along with a list of tests that aren't handled correctly yet [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action13]

<iv_an_ru> yes, it distinguish between failed and not executed tests.

<chimezie> I have to run, unfortunately...

Lee and Eric and anyone else interested meet tomorrow (5-Sep) at 11:00AM EDT to discuss XSD problems and get to the bottom of it

adjourned

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: ericP to have first cut of shiny implementation report by 11 Sep [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: ericP to try to produce a diff from CR to current editor's draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: LeeF to note mf:requires of extension points when emailing out update to test suite [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: LeeF to update approval information on all tests approved and re-approved today [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action09]
[NEW] ACTION: Orri and Ivan to publish URL to test service along with a list of tests that aren't handled correctly yet [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action13]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: Eric+Andy to identify and collect mf:requires URIs and put in documentation [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: ericP to answer "EBV of invalid numeric literals" email from Arjohn [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action05]
[PENDING] ACTION: ericP to incorporate text to fix EBV of illformed numeric literals bug in spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action06]
[PENDING] ACTION: ericP to poke IETF folks about registering SPARQL media types (esp. application/sparql-query) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action07]
[PENDING] ACTION: EricP to publish xml format CR pending OK of the results schema [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: ericP to write explanatory text saying that, like xsd:inteter and xsd:dateTime, the relative order of simple literals and xsd:strings is not defined here [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action08]
 
[DONE] ACTION: LeeF to solicit endpoints for HTTP and SOAP implementations of the SPARQL protocol [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action02]
 
[DROPPED] ACTION: Orri and Ivan to try the results XML schema and report back the results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/09/04-dawg-minutes.html#action03]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.128 (CVS log)
$Date: 2007/09/04 16:06:37 $