Re: Question regarding Legal Documents and Heavy use of Nested Numbered Lists

Matt, I imagine that one would use unordered lists instead of ordered
lists. This would keep the built in semantics, as well as styling in place.

On Fri, 11 Aug 2023, 23:10 Matt Garrish, <matt.garrish@gmail.com> wrote:

> Might be a case for using ARIA list and listitem roles with an inlined
> identifier to avoid the rendering issue that come with html list styling?
> Not sure how it would differ from PDF. (It's also imperfect since the
> visual styling would more heavily depend on CSS.)
>
> It sounds like you're trying to solve usability and accessibility issues,
> though, and I'm not sure you'll succeed at both. Extracting nesting
> context, for example, isn't simple no matter the format.
>
> Matt
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Lars Wallin <lars@colibrio.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, August 11, 2023 3:12:19 PM
> *To:* Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>
> *Cc:* James Gifford <james.gifford@nitropress.net>; Leonard Rosenthol <
> lrosenth@adobe.com>; Charles LaPierre <charlesl@benetech.org>; W3C
> Publishing Community Group <public-publishingcg@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Question regarding Legal Documents and Heavy use of Nested
> Numbered Lists
>
> PS. Maybe you can use the setsize and posinset values to make the AT
> narration correctly reflect the original, final rendering as well? Must try
> and see how this could be accomplished though. DS
>
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023, 21:03 Lars Wallin, <lars@colibrio.com> wrote:
>
> Yeah, this is a tricky part of using an algorithm to generate numbering.
> It's wonderful in the editing stage of the document, but presents problems
> when as you say Charles, content is removed from its original context.
>
> The reason that it "works" in PDF is that it is no longer dynamic of
> course, but has been rendered to a static representation.
>
> I guess that is what the W3C respec tool does as well, and maybe this
> should go into some note of how to best handle a final version of an EPUB
> document.
>
> Cheers,
> Lars
>
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2023, 20:53 Reid, Wendy, <wendy.reid@rakuten.com> wrote:
>
> I might be missing something, but you mention copy and paste erasing the
> levels, but I don’t see that happening in documents like any of the W3C TRs
> (good example of docs with many nested locators). Now the generation of
> those levels is done by respec/bikeshed (someone correct me on which is
> responsible for this), but it does present an interesting example of a doc
> in HTML that makes this very possible. But copy-paste also grabs the
> rendered text, not the code (or shouldn’t be), so if it’s rendered as
> “2.1.1 Title” then it should not be lost.
>
>
>
> I don’t think we can leave this niche to PDF considering the ongoing
> accessibility issues with PDF (and yes I know there are accessible PDFs,
> but even those have barriers). We should be able to do this in HTML/EPUB.
>
>
>
> -Wendy
>
>
>
> *From: *James Gifford <james.gifford@nitropress.net>
> *Date: *Friday, August 11, 2023 at 2:23 PM
> *To: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, Charles LaPierre <
> charlesl@benetech.org>, public-publishingcg@w3.org <
> public-publishingcg@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: Question regarding Legal Documents and Heavy use of Nested
> Numbered Lists
>
> *[EXTERNAL] *This message comes from an external organization.
>
> To be honest, my first and so far only thought is that perhaps this is a
> niche best left to PDF. There aren't many such, but the complexities of
> numbered structures within structures may not be worth the vast effort of
> reinventing for EPUB.
>
>
>
> *  —Jim *
> On 8/11/2023 12:15 PM, Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
>
> Why not examine how PDF does this – since the vast majority of legal
> documents have been (and continue to be) distributed as PDF files for 25+
> years now including many of them required to be accessible.
>
>
>
> While the full details of creating accessible PDFs can be found in ISO
> 14289, PDF/UA (https://pdfa.org/resource/iso-14289-pdfua/) – you can also
> check out what the W3C specifically says about the handling of Lists in PDF
> with respect to WCAG at https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/pdf#PDF21.
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *Charles LaPierre <charlesl@benetech.org> <charlesl@benetech.org>
> *Date: *Friday, August 11, 2023 at 1:31 PM
> *To: *public-publishingcg@w3.org <public-publishingcg@w3.org>
> <public-publishingcg@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Question regarding Legal Documents and Heavy use of Nested
> Numbered Lists
>
> *EXTERNAL: Use caution when clicking on links or opening attachments.*
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
>
> I am struggling to find what should be the best practice around Legal
> documents or other documents which have a lot of nested numbered lists.
>
>
>
> Should these lists be encoded as true lists in HTML or should they be hard
> coded within the <p> tags.
>
> I see pros and cons for both ways.  For accessibility reasons having these
> as true lists is important for navigation etc. but if you are trying to
> cite some legal section 2.5.3 for example and copy that out and past it
> into another document it usually will revert to 1.1.1.  There may be other
> concerns I am not thinking of especially say a multi-page document and
> needing to keep track on a different page where the numbering scheme left
> of so you can update the list’s starting point.
>
>
>
> Any thoughts on how these heavily nested list documents should be encoded
> from an accessibility perspective.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Charles
>
> EOM
>
>
>
> Charles LaPierre
>
> Principal, Accessibility and Content Quality Architect
>
> Benetech
>
> Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y
>
>
>
>
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