Re: Minutes from EPUB.Next

Florian: “If we’re wondering what to do next, the primary question is a business one. The web is a publishing industry. The difference between the web and the “publishing” industry is business cases. What is it about the things that can be done with web-native content that can’t be done with existing business models? What do we want to do that we’re failing to do? Many of these things have existing answers. Once we understand the business model, we can move from there. “

I agree Florian. As a member of the Alliance of Independent Publishers, I don't hear discussions about the things that are missing in in ePUB. The conversations center around writing content and understanding how to use the platforms that are already out there. Content creators want to make content and get paid for it. Once new delivery modes come out, e.g. audio books, NFTs, they figure out a way to create content for them and have a new revenue stream.

Having been a web designer since the 90s, I remember the browser wars. As designers, we solved them by designing to the W3C spec and let the browser venders worry about compatibility.  I don't think that tactic will work here.. Content creators will publish on KDP  regardless of the limitations of the platform, because that is where a lot of the market is.

I am reading a wishful thinking about where to go and possible issues. Has anyone compiled a list of actual things content creators are trying to do and they can't because of the limitations of the ePUB readers? And in terms of a spec. We could come up with loads of ideas, are the market places going to support it?  We could create a fine ePub 3.0 document. If a content creator uploads it to KDP, does there robot strip out everything that is not Kindle compatible?

Ruth: My goal would be to create graphic novels in ePub format that work similar to the Comixology platform (which is now an Amazon Company). If I could create documents in HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript (Maybe Greensock), and throw in some media queries to adjust for screen size, that would work. And it would be accessible because GreenSock animates DOM objects.  I have no idea if any eReader will support those desires.  The eReaders seems to be interested in replicating an old fashion book with a few enhancements.

Content creators publish to the major market places. If Amazon is going to hold tight to the mobi platform, how can we help them move forward. I don’t see them in this conversation.

Dale

From: Ruth Tait <artbyrt@gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 5:19 PM
To: Colin Pittendrigh <sandy.pittendrigh@gmail.com>
Cc: Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe..com>, Siegman, Tzviya <tsiegman@wiley.com>, PBG Steering Committee (Public) <public-publishing-sc@w3.org>, W3C Publishing Business Group <public-publishingbg@w3.org>, public-publishingcg@w3.org <public-publishingcg@w3.org>, public-epub3@w3.org <public-epub3@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Minutes from EPUB.Next
Hello Colin,

I am a designer/artist who spent 2 years working on an MA thesis exploring possibilities of EPUB as a dissemination vehicle that supports self-publishing, accessibility and offline rich media. I created a demonstration EPUB3 (’The Honeyed Tale’) that is available for download through my website<https://www.artbyrt.com/artbyrt_docs/splash_film.html> and through Apple ibooks (it’s a little dated now). Within the current download of EPUB limits (e.g. ~30mb) it is possible to include short video that will play inside of a supporting reader.

I was recently sent a link to an Indigenous production of Canada’s Library and Archives <https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/fra/decouvrez/patrimoine-autochtone/initiatives/Pages/nations-a-nations-voix-autochtones-BAC.aspx> that is a whopping 475mb. Needless to say, it would not download, but it shows that developers are testing the limits in the service of packaged discrete content.

Currently, I am working on an accessible graphic novel chap-book series being developed in EPUB3, where my method of containment will be to create images optimized to best effect as well as screen reader description along with an audio track of description for accessibility support. All of this should come in at just under 30mb for each chap-book.

I only have a very minimal understanding of programming. I have used the tools and markup as they currently exist and continually test to insure EPUB3 compliance and intention. I hope that this demonstrates a ‘type’ of EPUB3 builder/user. If that helps...


ruth tait
http://www.artbyrt.com
O: 613 604 2781




On Oct 28, 2021, at 5:35 PM, Colin Pittendrigh <sandy.pittendrigh@gmail.com<mailto:sandy.pittendrigh@gmail.com>> wrote:

I finished my career working the last 5 years on soft (NIH) money building an online curriculum to teach elementary computer programming at Little Big Horn College on the Crow Indian Reservation in Montana.

I did everything with HTML, Js, php, MySQL and Moodle.  Plus a little Python. I wrote software that presented HTML so it looked and acted like a book with ordered pages, TOC and lots of cookies to save various states, like last read page. My plan was to use Lucene (Plucene actually) to make a searchable index. But I retired first.  I still plan to write that. Perhaps this Winter.


However.
Although most reservation kids do have phones they do not have internet access at home    My courses needed to be in epub format so rural kids could read and study at night.

I also discovered teaching anything in digital format benefits enormously from embedded video.

So, for the online teaching context, I think epub needs to support the streaming of external video resources. That was my 5 year conclusion.

Embedded video would work when they had wifi access (at school) but not when they were at home. Sometimes is better than never

Some readers (Lithium for instance) do support iframe links to external YouTube (or wherever) video. Others do not.



On Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 3:31 PM Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>> wrote:
Colin, your comments are more than welcome, please share!

-Wendy

From: Colin Pittendrigh <sandy.pittendrigh@gmail.com<mailto:sandy.pittendrigh@gmail.com>>
Date: Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 4:26 PM
To: Ruth Tait <artbyrt@gmail.com<mailto:artbyrt@gmail.com>>
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>, "Siegman, Tzviya" <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>, "PBG Steering Committee (Public)" <public-publishing-sc@w3.org<mailto:public-publishing-sc@w3.org>>, W3C Publishing Business Group <public-publishingbg@w3.org<mailto:public-publishingbg@w3.org>>, "public-publishingcg@w3.org<mailto:public-publishingcg@w3.org>" <public-publishingcg@w3.org<mailto:public-publishingcg@w3.org>>, "public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>" <public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Minutes from EPUB.Next
Resent-From: <public-publishing-sc@w3.org<mailto:public-publishing-sc@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 4:26 PM

[EXTERNAL] This message comes from an external organization.
Who can comment? I'm a 73 year I'll old retired unix server side programmer with epub as my retirement hobby.  I have ideas and comments but I'm not sure it's appropriate

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021, 1:36 PM Ruth Tait <artbyrt@gmail.com<mailto:artbyrt@gmail.com>> wrote:
I’m not sure that the standards of design for web content and consumption of information correspond diametrically with those of epub content design. The experience of consuming epub content through a reader is so different as to be almost outside the scope of comparison (in my humble opinion). What makes more sense to the dissemination and update of epub is the basic twinning of the content object and the reader (much as with the use of Libby in library ebook loans) or ibooks (if it would stick closer to epub3 standards for production).

I am speaking from my own bias but I cannot say that I like reading off of a computer monitor, no matter what app is delivering the content… but, I am very happy within a reader app on an ipad… because it is a simple and clean and it retains the book scope.

ruth tait
https://www.artbyrt.com<https://www.artbyrt.com/>
O: 613 604 2781



On Oct 28, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>> wrote:

Sorry I was unable to attend the meeting – too many other standards going on right now.   I did, however, have a chance to review the minutes – thanks to Tzviya for providing them.

Ignoring the incorrect information about PDF, its use as a document format and its ability to be made accessible (in compliance with national and international standards, including WCAG) – I did want to comment on the larger question about “Replacing PDF”

Andrew and Tzviya said it very well at the end of the meeting – people who are moving away from PDF for publications are moving to the web (aka HTML).  We’ve talked to many customers in many segments around the world on this particular topic.  What we learned is that they are choosing to do so for a variety of reasons including (but not limited to):
- They know what the web is (and the corollary, they don’t know what EPUB is)
- Everyone has a web browser (and the corollary, they don’t have EPUB Readers)
- They already have tools that produce HTML (and the corollary, they don’t have EPUB tooling or don’t know how to use it)
- They can easily update the material and ensure that recipients are always looking at the right thing.

So as mentioned by a number of folks – this group needs to figure out whether the goal is to provide a better reading/consumption experience “on the web” (aka in browser) *OR* to compete with PDF as a packaged format for “off the web” content distribution and consumption.   As others said – trying to do both isn’t working well for EPUB…

Leonard

From: Siegman, Tzviya <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>
Date: Thursday, October 28, 2021 at 12:03 PM
To: PBG Steering Committee (Public) <public-publishing-sc@w3.org<mailto:public-publishing-sc@w3.org>>, W3C Publishing Business Group <public-publishingbg@w3.org<mailto:public-publishingbg@w3.org>>, public-publishingcg@w3.org<mailto:public-publishingcg@w3.org> <public-publishingcg@w3.org<mailto:public-publishingcg@w3.org>>, public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org> <public-epub3@w3.org<mailto:public-epub3@w3.org>>
Subject: Minutes from EPUB.Next
Hi All,

Thank you for attending our community meeting on 27 October.

Here are minutes https://www.w3.org/2021/10/27-epub.html<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2021%2F10%2F27-epub.html&data=04%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C240fc1e0d03d4e5577b008d99a2c6af1%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637710337831636934%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=2A3GXAw1pvhmVUeBQ0FJu3GIPKX8BXKReeVI4BjBJpU%3D&reserved=0>.

We plan another community-wide meeting in about 6 months.

Thank you,
Tzviya

Tzviya Siegman
Information Standards Principal
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>