Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

+1 to Avneesh (as usual).

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:39 PM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> My main concern is about trying to combine page marks with headers/footers.
> Page markers (doc-pagebreak) is used to navigate to location in the
> content. i.e. it is with respect to content.
> But headers/footers in this discussion thread are with respect to pixel
> location of document.
>
> These are two very different things from this perspective. If we can keep
> both things separate then it addresses my concerns.
>
> With regards
> Avneesh
>
> *From:* Brady Duga
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 21:25
> *To:* Aaron Leventhal
> *Cc:* George Kerscher ; Avneesh Singh ; White, Jason J ; Leonard Rosenthol
> ; W3C Publishing Working Group ; Joanmarie Diggs
> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
> Well, I am not an aria expert, and this group isn't really chartered for
> epub work (unless it is? I can never keep my charters straight), but it
> might produce something in the future that does have support for running
> head/foot, so we shouldn't overly restrict ourselves. But it does seem to
> me that any future formats would want to have the same capabilities as a
> word processor when it comes to explicitly skipping or reading the running
> heads/feet.
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:40 AM Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Brady, that's great to know. And since we drop the headers/footers on
>> export, it sounds like we already do the right thing?
>>
>> Sounds like we only really need the ARIA for the web view, not the EPUB
>> export.
>>
>> Aaron
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 11:32 AM Brady Duga <duga@google.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Docs does in fact have native epub export (File -> Download -> EPUB
>>> Publication), largely driven by Garth Conboy (also a co-chair of this
>>> group). However, there is currently no facility in epub to do dynamic page
>>> numbering, though of course implementations may generate them for their UI.
>>> In the past, dynamic page numbering that changes with reflow has been
>>> experimented with, but the community has largely moved to fixed page
>>> numbers. This allows a user to understand their location after eg text zoom
>>> (page 250 is always 50% of a 500 page book). The other common use is to
>>> share location information succinctly and precisely, eg "class, turn to
>>> page 250". It is unclear to me how important having a generated page number
>>> is. There is also no particularly good way to do running page-header/foot
>>> in epub, though a hacky facility to do it did exist at one point.
>>> Currently, running heads are dropped in Docs to epub export. Future work in
>>> this area will likely be done in collaboration with CSS, assuming we
>>> actually decide to do it.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:01 AM Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> George, sounds like you are saying that if Docs is to export to EPUB (I
>>>> don't think it currently does, but maybe there's an extension?) -- then
>>>> there would be a set of requirements to ensure good quality navigation.
>>>>
>>>> Aaron
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 10:48 AM George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, when using  Google Docs and using the publish this document, the
>>>>> spot of the page break at the top must contain the  doc-page-break
>>>>> attribute. Also, when generating the EPUB version, this is the spot
>>>>>
>>>>> That must be linked Along with the number that must be in the page
>>>>> list in the navdoc.
>>>>>
>>>>> In this way, people using the print version and the EPUB version can
>>>>> be on the same page, grin.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best
>>>>>
>>>>> George
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 7:08 AM
>>>>> *To:* Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
>>>>> *Cc:* White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>; George Kerscher <
>>>>> kerscher@montana.com>; Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>;
>>>>> public-publ-wg@w3.org; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Avneesh, Google Docs has a "publish this document" feature, as well as
>>>>> a mode where users can read, but not edit a document. In the published
>>>>> case, there is no caret navigation built in. Being able to skip over
>>>>> running page content should work in any of these modes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When zooming in the browser, I would not currently expect pagination
>>>>> to change at all. However, if such a zoom and reflow feature did exist, and
>>>>> repagination did occur, I imagine that the user would want to be able to
>>>>> refer to original page numbers, similarly to Braille print page indicators.
>>>>> I'm not sure how this would be handled, but I suppose it's worth discussing
>>>>> how the role doc-pagenum would be used. Let's think it out. Personally I
>>>>> don't think it should be required for the doc-pagenum role to be inside of
>>>>> a doc-pageheader or doc-pagefooter, but that it could optionally be.  I
>>>>> don't see it as an issue to have the browser/AT combo work with either
>>>>> scenario.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Aaron
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 7:53 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Clarifying it further. My example is from publishing perspective i.e.
>>>>> mostly read only documents that are published.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we are looking at this from purely word processor perspective, then
>>>>> I wonder if this is a publishing related issue?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> With regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Avneesh
>>>>>
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 17:19
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:* White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ; 'Aaron Leventhal'
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cc:* 'Leonard Rosenthol' ; public-publ-wg@w3.org ; 'Joanmarie Diggs'
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that I am able to get the expected functionality, at the same
>>>>> time I am still confused with placing page numbers in footers or headers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Explaining it in step wise manner
>>>>>
>>>>> - The text will reflow but the headers and footers are expected to
>>>>> remain constant.
>>>>>
>>>>> - For example, if the document has footers after approximately 20
>>>>> lines and the user zooms to double size, then there will be one footer
>>>>> after each 7 or 8 lines.
>>>>>
>>>>> - This means that page breaks will also flow down.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, how can one mark persistent page number inside header or footer.
>>>>> In such a case the page number in footer will become reading system
>>>>> responsibility which will change dynamically instead of being
>>>>> responsibility of content.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If we want to have static page numbers in header or footers then it
>>>>> should be a fixed layout,
>>>>>
>>>>> or the header / footer should also reflow when user zooms the document.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> With regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Avneesh
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* White, Jason J
>>>>>
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 1:35
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:* George Kerscher ; 'Aaron Leventhal' ; 'Avneesh Singh'
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cc:* 'Leonard Rosenthol' ; public-publ-wg@w3.org ; 'Joanmarie Diggs'
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the screen readers should offer a means of querying the
>>>>> header/footer information. However, that’s outside the scope of ARIA and a
>>>>> matter for each implementation. This would be especially useful in a word
>>>>> processor, as the user needs to be able to read and edit it. Another option
>>>>> would be a simple “go to header/footer” navigation command in the
>>>>> application itself.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m not sure that I fully understand George’s question about export to
>>>>> EPUB. When the text is reflowed, the pagination may change, but the
>>>>> header/footer text often wouldn’t. A good example would be printing to
>>>>> different page sizes or font sizes. If the text still fits, then presumably
>>>>> it should simply be printed wherever the new page breaks lie after styles
>>>>> are applied to the document. It’s very much the same as what happens if you
>>>>> make changes to a document in a word processor. If there are no explicit
>>>>> page breaks in the markup, then the page header/footer should be able to be
>>>>> applied to an entire div/section of the document:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <section role=”doc-chapter”>
>>>>>
>>>>> <!—Applies to all pages in this section -->
>>>>>
>>>>> <div role=”doc-pageheader”>[…]</div>
>>>>>
>>>>> […]
>>>>>
>>>>> </section>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m not in a position to answer Aaron’s earlier question about the
>>>>> schedule for specifying new ARIA features for these use cases. I think
>>>>> that’s a question for the Chairs, or for a group meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 12:50 PM
>>>>> *To:* 'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com>; 'Avneesh Singh' <
>>>>> avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
>>>>> *Cc:* 'Leonard Rosenthol' <lrosenth@adobe.com>; White, Jason J <
>>>>> jjwhite@ets.org>; public-publ-wg@w3.org; 'Joanmarie Diggs' <
>>>>> jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A few items here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I totally agree that while creating content as in GoogleDocs, it is
>>>>> perfectly fine to have running footers and Headers. Even better if I, using
>>>>> my screen reader, do not need to encounter them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The export to EPUB would not put this in the reflowed content, right?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Page numbers are one of those things we have called “skippable”
>>>>> structures. In an audio book, you may want to go to page 34 and hear that
>>>>> this is page 34, but in continuous reading, you want to skip (filter is
>>>>> your term) over it.  However,  It is always good to stop and find out where
>>>>> you are.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems that this agreement.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best
>>>>>
>>>>> George
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 8:46 AM
>>>>> *To:* Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
>>>>> *Cc:* Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>; White, Jason J <
>>>>> jjwhite@ets.org>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>;
>>>>> public-publ-wg@w3.org; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> George -- we're in agreement. This will help paginated content just
>>>>> seem like one continuous document when you're reading. Basically, we're
>>>>> trying to make it so that you don't see this stuff when you're word
>>>>> processing unless you want to. By having the word processor (like Google
>>>>> Docs) mark these up, the AT can decide to filter those things out, which
>>>>> they can't do right now. See Glen Gordon's comments in the bug. This will
>>>>> allow them to have similar functionality for this in Google Docs as they do
>>>>> on MS word. Where are we not aligned here?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Avneesh -- DPUB is very close to being able to help us have an awesome
>>>>> experience in Google Docs. Makes sense as a use case, right?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason -- can you give an example? I think we want 2 things from the
>>>>> page number -- to be able to report it when the user wants it, and to be
>>>>> able to filter it out when the user just wants to read continuously
>>>>> (similar to filtering out the page header).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:38 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that the confusion comes from the design. Most of the DPUB
>>>>> aria roles are from the perspective of a refloable document like HTML and
>>>>> EPUB 3. On the other hand the discussion in this thread looks more oriented
>>>>> towards somewhat like a fixed layout document.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> With regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Avneesh
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Aaron Leventhal
>>>>>
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 19:56
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:* Avneesh Singh
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cc:* Leonard Rosenthol ; White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ;
>>>>> public-publ-wg@w3.org ; Joanmarie Diggs
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, I didn't realize that's where the page number would currently
>>>>> go. I'm not sure it's ideal.
>>>>>
>>>>> <span id="pg04" role="doc-pagebreak" title="4"/>
>>>>>
>>>>> A page break line would likely show up as a horizontal line. Under the
>>>>> horizontal line is a header, then adjacent to that comes the page number.
>>>>> How would that be done in markup?
>>>>>
>>>>> We don't want 2 page breaks, and the page break and page number aren't
>>>>> in the same place.
>>>>>
>>>>> <hr role="doc-pagebreak">
>>>>>
>>>>> <div role="doc-pageheader">
>>>>>
>>>>>   My header <span role="doc-pagenumber">4</span>
>>>>>
>>>>> </div>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Additionally, in the page break example, the page number usage is in
>>>>> the title attribute, which would not be visible text. Although it's not
>>>>> explained, t's not clear to me from the example or spec text that
>>>>> browsers/ATs could expect a page number inside a child text node.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> IMO we should have a separate role for page numbers, or put them
>>>>> inside the header or footer objects, but putting them as part of the page
>>>>> break to me will cause a problem with the above example.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aaron
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:17 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> doc-pagebreak already exists in DPUB aria roles for locating the page
>>>>> marks. They can have a visible page number as well as invisible page number.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> With regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Avneesh
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Aaron Leventhal
>>>>>
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 19:12
>>>>>
>>>>> *To:* Leonard Rosenthol
>>>>>
>>>>> *Cc:* White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ; public-publ-wg@w3.org ;
>>>>> Joanmarie Diggs
>>>>>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Leonard, don't we want to be able to differentiate the headers
>>>>> from the running headers? It's the repeated running headers that users want
>>>>> to skip over.
>>>>>
>>>>> The headers that are part of the content seem different, like a
>>>>> <header> in HTML.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 9:35 AM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In PDF, we treat page numbers as a separate thing from the
>>>>> header/trailer (and yes, you can have the former inside the latter).  We
>>>>> also have a “class” for bates numbers and a few other vertical-specific
>>>>> elements.   We have found that it is important to be able to unique
>>>>> identify them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Headers and Footers aren’t necessary tied to pages – you could have a
>>>>> section with a header or footer as well, so perhaps just `doc-header` and
>>>>> `doc-footer` (and `doc-pagenum`).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Leonard
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From: *Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
>>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 8:55 AM
>>>>> *To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
>>>>> *Cc: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, "kerscher@montana.com" <
>>>>> kerscher@montana.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>,
>>>>> Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>>> *Subject: *Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds good.
>>>>>
>>>>> - How about doc-pageheader and doc-pagefooter?
>>>>>
>>>>> - Possible definition: repeated section of text that appears at the
>>>>> top/bottom of pages in a document, potentially containing a title, page
>>>>> number or other information
>>>>>
>>>>> - Should the page number get its own role, e.g. doc-pagenum? Should it
>>>>> exist within the doc-pageheader/doc-page-footer?
>>>>>
>>>>> - Should the new roles inherit from contentinfo?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 8:05 AM White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If there’s already a mapping to accessibility APIs via PDF readers,
>>>>> then we could use it here too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Screen readers could offer a command to query this information, if
>>>>> desired, just as there is for window titles.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 21:45
>>>>> *To: *George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>, 'Aaron Leventhal' <
>>>>> aleventhal@google.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> *Cc: *'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>>> *Subject: *Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>> *Resent-From: *<public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>>>>> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 21:45
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW: Headers & Footers can be properly identified in PDFs and exposed
>>>>> accordingly to AT (so that they aren’t read multiple times).  In fact,
>>>>> PDF/UA (the PDF standard for Universal Accessibility) calls out their usage.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Leonard
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From: *"kerscher@montana.com" <kerscher@montana.com>
>>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 4:35 PM
>>>>> *To: *'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com>, "
>>>>> public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>>>>> *Cc: *'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>>> *Subject: *RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>> *Resent-From: *<public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>>>>> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 4:35 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is just my opinion. Running headers and footers are very
>>>>> intrusive while reading. I encounter these many times in PDF documents. The
>>>>> same information is constantly repeated. Fortunately, I do not encounter
>>>>> this while reading EPUB. I can understand that it might be useful for the
>>>>> Reading System to provide “where am I?” information as one is reading, but
>>>>> including this over-and-over again in the content would be horrible.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am reading using Assistive Technology (AT) and the TTS reads to me.
>>>>> I imagine this would also be painful if a person was using the read aloud
>>>>> function in Reading Systems.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I could see the same problem in an audio book. Nobody would want to
>>>>> hear those running heads and footers in the audio book.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My $.02
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best
>>>>>
>>>>> George
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best
>>>>>
>>>>> George
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2019 11:37 AM
>>>>> *To:* public-publ-wg@w3.org
>>>>> *Cc:* Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm wondering about the plans for doing DPUB-ARIA 2.0 as described
>>>>> under the deliverables:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/publ-wg-charter/#deliverables
>>>>> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2017%2F04%2Fpubl-wg-charter%2F%23deliverables&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cba59d4f6e6f044acfd9908d726579a04%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C637020030007316600&sdata=PTB8VcQ%2FW8W5fG01aBOpUEjbgqKo1vPm%2FXbLtjQo3LM%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for what DPUB-ARIA provides so far. Google Docs is going to be
>>>>> using it  to expose semantics for online word processing. We're
>>>>> collaborating with AT vendors and other developers of online word
>>>>> processors as well.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> One gap is running headers and footers:
>>>>> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/10
>>>>> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fdpub-aria%2Fissues%2F10&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cba59d4f6e6f044acfd9908d726579a04%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C637020030007316600&sdata=e3ypq%2B6xcsXXGoZesjzAX7dFC%2BlLIPu74KxiX0YHuVE%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>> -- hence the reason for my email and status check :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for any info,
>>>>>
>>>>> Aaron
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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-- 
*Bill Kasdorf*
*Principal, Kasdorf & Associates, LLC*

*Founding Partner, Publishing Technology Partners
<https://pubtechpartners.com/>*
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