Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

Avneesh, Google Docs has a "publish this document" feature, as well as a
mode where users can read, but not edit a document. In the published case,
there is no caret navigation built in. Being able to skip over running page
content should work in any of these modes.

When zooming in the browser, I would not currently expect pagination to
change at all. However, if such a zoom and reflow feature did exist, and
repagination did occur, I imagine that the user would want to be able to
refer to original page numbers, similarly to Braille print page indicators.
I'm not sure how this would be handled, but I suppose it's worth discussing
how the role doc-pagenum would be used. Let's think it out. Personally I
don't think it should be required for the doc-pagenum role to be inside of
a doc-pageheader or doc-pagefooter, but that it could optionally be.  I
don't see it as an issue to have the browser/AT combo work with either
scenario.

Aaron

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 7:53 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com> wrote:

> Clarifying it further. My example is from publishing perspective i.e.
> mostly read only documents that are published.
> If we are looking at this from purely word processor perspective, then I
> wonder if this is a publishing related issue?
>
> With regards
> Avneesh
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 17:19
> *To:* White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ; 'Aaron Leventhal'
> *Cc:* 'Leonard Rosenthol' ; public-publ-wg@w3.org ; 'Joanmarie Diggs'
> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
>
> I think that I am able to get the expected functionality, at the same time
> I am still confused with placing page numbers in footers or headers.
> Explaining it in step wise manner
> - The text will reflow but the headers and footers are expected to remain
> constant.
> - For example, if the document has footers after approximately 20 lines
> and the user zooms to double size, then there will be one footer after each
> 7 or 8 lines.
> - This means that page breaks will also flow down.
>
> Now, how can one mark persistent page number inside header or footer. In
> such a case the page number in footer will become reading system
> responsibility which will change dynamically instead of being
> responsibility of content.
>
> If we want to have static page numbers in header or footers then it should
> be a fixed layout,
> or the header / footer should also reflow when user zooms the document.
>
> With regards
> Avneesh
> *From:* White, Jason J
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 1:35
> *To:* George Kerscher ; 'Aaron Leventhal' ; 'Avneesh Singh'
> *Cc:* 'Leonard Rosenthol' ; public-publ-wg@w3.org ; 'Joanmarie Diggs'
> *Subject:* RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
>
> Perhaps the screen readers should offer a means of querying the
> header/footer information. However, that’s outside the scope of ARIA and a
> matter for each implementation. This would be especially useful in a word
> processor, as the user needs to be able to read and edit it. Another option
> would be a simple “go to header/footer” navigation command in the
> application itself.
>
>
>
> I’m not sure that I fully understand George’s question about export to
> EPUB. When the text is reflowed, the pagination may change, but the
> header/footer text often wouldn’t. A good example would be printing to
> different page sizes or font sizes. If the text still fits, then presumably
> it should simply be printed wherever the new page breaks lie after styles
> are applied to the document. It’s very much the same as what happens if you
> make changes to a document in a word processor. If there are no explicit
> page breaks in the markup, then the page header/footer should be able to be
> applied to an entire div/section of the document:
>
>
>
> <section role=”doc-chapter”>
>
> <!—Applies to all pages in this section -->
>
> <div role=”doc-pageheader”>[…]</div>
>
> […]
>
> </section>
>
>
>
> I’m not in a position to answer Aaron’s earlier question about the
> schedule for specifying new ARIA features for these use cases. I think
> that’s a question for the Chairs, or for a group meeting.
>
>
>
> *From:* George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 12:50 PM
> *To:* 'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com>; 'Avneesh Singh' <
> avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* 'Leonard Rosenthol' <lrosenth@adobe.com>; White, Jason J <
> jjwhite@ets.org>; public-publ-wg@w3.org; 'Joanmarie Diggs' <
> jdiggs@igalia.com>
> *Subject:* RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> A few items here:
>
>
>
> I totally agree that while creating content as in GoogleDocs, it is
> perfectly fine to have running footers and Headers. Even better if I, using
> my screen reader, do not need to encounter them.
>
>
>
> The export to EPUB would not put this in the reflowed content, right?
>
>
>
> Page numbers are one of those things we have called “skippable”
> structures. In an audio book, you may want to go to page 34 and hear that
> this is page 34, but in continuous reading, you want to skip (filter is
> your term) over it.  However,  It is always good to stop and find out where
> you are.
>
>
>
> Seems that this agreement.
>
>
>
> Best
>
> George
>
>
>
> *From:* Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 8:46 AM
> *To:* Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>; White, Jason J <
> jjwhite@ets.org>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>;
> public-publ-wg@w3.org; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
>
>
> George -- we're in agreement. This will help paginated content just seem
> like one continuous document when you're reading. Basically, we're trying
> to make it so that you don't see this stuff when you're word processing
> unless you want to. By having the word processor (like Google Docs) mark
> these up, the AT can decide to filter those things out, which they can't do
> right now. See Glen Gordon's comments in the bug. This will allow them to
> have similar functionality for this in Google Docs as they do on MS word.
> Where are we not aligned here?
>
>
>
> Avneesh -- DPUB is very close to being able to help us have an awesome
> experience in Google Docs. Makes sense as a use case, right?
>
>
>
> Jason -- can you give an example? I think we want 2 things from the page
> number -- to be able to report it when the user wants it, and to be able to
> filter it out when the user just wants to read continuously (similar to
> filtering out the page header).
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:38 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I think that the confusion comes from the design. Most of the DPUB aria
> roles are from the perspective of a refloable document like HTML and EPUB
> 3. On the other hand the discussion in this thread looks more oriented
> towards somewhat like a fixed layout document.
>
>
>
> With regards
>
> Avneesh
>
> *From:* Aaron Leventhal
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 19:56
>
> *To:* Avneesh Singh
>
> *Cc:* Leonard Rosenthol ; White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ;
> public-publ-wg@w3.org ; Joanmarie Diggs
>
> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
>
>
> Thanks, I didn't realize that's where the page number would currently go.
> I'm not sure it's ideal.
>
> <span id="pg04" role="doc-pagebreak" title="4"/>
>
> A page break line would likely show up as a horizontal line. Under the
> horizontal line is a header, then adjacent to that comes the page number.
> How would that be done in markup?
>
> We don't want 2 page breaks, and the page break and page number aren't in
> the same place.
>
> <hr role="doc-pagebreak">
>
> <div role="doc-pageheader">
>
>   My header <span role="doc-pagenumber">4</span>
>
> </div>
>
>
>
> Additionally, in the page break example, the page number usage is in the
> title attribute, which would not be visible text. Although it's not
> explained, t's not clear to me from the example or spec text that
> browsers/ATs could expect a page number inside a child text node.
>
>
>
> IMO we should have a separate role for page numbers, or put them inside
> the header or footer objects, but putting them as part of the page break to
> me will cause a problem with the above example.
>
> Aaron
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:17 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> doc-pagebreak already exists in DPUB aria roles for locating the page
> marks. They can have a visible page number as well as invisible page number.
>
>
>
>
>
> With regards
>
> Avneesh
>
> *From:* Aaron Leventhal
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 19:12
>
> *To:* Leonard Rosenthol
>
> *Cc:* White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ; public-publ-wg@w3.org ;
> Joanmarie Diggs
>
> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
>
>
> Thanks Leonard, don't we want to be able to differentiate the headers from
> the running headers? It's the repeated running headers that users want to
> skip over.
>
> The headers that are part of the content seem different, like a <header>
> in HTML.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 9:35 AM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> wrote:
>
> In PDF, we treat page numbers as a separate thing from the header/trailer
> (and yes, you can have the former inside the latter).  We also have a
> “class” for bates numbers and a few other vertical-specific elements.   We
> have found that it is important to be able to unique identify them.
>
>
>
> Headers and Footers aren’t necessary tied to pages – you could have a
> section with a header or footer as well, so perhaps just `doc-header` and
> `doc-footer` (and `doc-pagenum`).
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 8:55 AM
> *To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, "kerscher@montana.com" <
> kerscher@montana.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>,
> Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
> *Subject: *Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
>
>
> Sounds good.
>
> - How about doc-pageheader and doc-pagefooter?
>
> - Possible definition: repeated section of text that appears at the
> top/bottom of pages in a document, potentially containing a title, page
> number or other information
>
> - Should the page number get its own role, e.g. doc-pagenum? Should it
> exist within the doc-pageheader/doc-page-footer?
>
> - Should the new roles inherit from contentinfo?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 8:05 AM White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>
> If there’s already a mapping to accessibility APIs via PDF readers, then
> we could use it here too.
>
>
>
> Screen readers could offer a command to query this information, if
> desired, just as there is for window titles.
>
>
>
> *From: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 21:45
> *To: *George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>, 'Aaron Leventhal' <
> aleventhal@google.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> *Cc: *'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com>
> *Subject: *Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
> *Resent-From: *<public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 21:45
>
>
>
> FWIW: Headers & Footers can be properly identified in PDFs and exposed
> accordingly to AT (so that they aren’t read multiple times).  In fact,
> PDF/UA (the PDF standard for Universal Accessibility) calls out their usage.
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *"kerscher@montana.com" <kerscher@montana.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 4:35 PM
> *To: *'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <
> public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> *Cc: *'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com>
> *Subject: *RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
> *Resent-From: *<public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 4:35 PM
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> This is just my opinion. Running headers and footers are very intrusive
> while reading. I encounter these many times in PDF documents. The same
> information is constantly repeated. Fortunately, I do not encounter this
> while reading EPUB. I can understand that it might be useful for the
> Reading System to provide “where am I?” information as one is reading, but
> including this over-and-over again in the content would be horrible.
>
> I am reading using Assistive Technology (AT) and the TTS reads to me. I
> imagine this would also be painful if a person was using the read aloud
> function in Reading Systems.
>
>
>
> I could see the same problem in an audio book. Nobody would want to hear
> those running heads and footers in the audio book.
>
>
>
> My $.02
>
>
>
> Best
>
> George
>
>
>
> Best
>
> George
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2019 11:37 AM
> *To:* public-publ-wg@w3.org
> *Cc:* Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
> *Subject:* Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering about the plans for doing DPUB-ARIA 2.0 as described under
> the deliverables:
>
> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/publ-wg-charter/#deliverables
> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2017%2F04%2Fpubl-wg-charter%2F%23deliverables&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cba59d4f6e6f044acfd9908d726579a04%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C637020030007316600&sdata=PTB8VcQ%2FW8W5fG01aBOpUEjbgqKo1vPm%2FXbLtjQo3LM%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> Thanks for what DPUB-ARIA provides so far. Google Docs is going to be
> using it  to expose semantics for online word processing. We're
> collaborating with AT vendors and other developers of online word
> processors as well.
>
>
>
> One gap is running headers and footers:
> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/10
> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fdpub-aria%2Fissues%2F10&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cba59d4f6e6f044acfd9908d726579a04%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C637020030007316600&sdata=e3ypq%2B6xcsXXGoZesjzAX7dFC%2BlLIPu74KxiX0YHuVE%3D&reserved=0>
> -- hence the reason for my email and status check :)
>
>
>
> Thanks for any info,
>
> Aaron
>
>
>
>
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