RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

Hi,
 
On the export to EPUB 3, the navdoc must contain the page list, which should be easy to generate from this example.
 
Best
George
 
 
From: White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 12:42 PM
To: Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>; Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>; public-publ-wg@w3.org; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
Subject: RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
 
We might also need the “go to the page that is numbered n” command in the document reading application to work for cases in which the document markup was created by a different tool.
 
Given Aaron’s markup (quoted below), this should be easy: just match the content of [role=doc-pagenumber] elements. So I’m satisfied with Aaron’s example. I’m assuming that the user wants to find the page by the number that appears on it, not the sequential number in the entire document; but the other case is straightforward too (counting [role=doc-pagebreak] elements).
 
<hr role="doc-pagebreak">
<div role="doc-pageheader">
  My header <span role="doc-pagenumber">4</span>
</div>
 
 
 
From: Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com <mailto:aleventhal@google.com> > 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 10:46 AM
To: Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com <mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com> >
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com> >; White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org <mailto:jjwhite@ets.org> >; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com <mailto:kerscher@montana.com> >; public-publ-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org> ; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com> >
Subject: Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
 
George -- we're in agreement. This will help paginated content just seem like one continuous document when you're reading. Basically, we're trying to make it so that you don't see this stuff when you're word processing unless you want to. By having the word processor (like Google Docs) mark these up, the AT can decide to filter those things out, which they can't do right now. See Glen Gordon's comments in the bug. This will allow them to have similar functionality for this in Google Docs as they do on MS word. Where are we not aligned here?
 
Avneesh -- DPUB is very close to being able to help us have an awesome experience in Google Docs. Makes sense as a use case, right?
 
Jason -- can you give an example? I think we want 2 things from the page number -- to be able to report it when the user wants it, and to be able to filter it out when the user just wants to read continuously (similar to filtering out the page header).
 
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:38 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com <mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com> > wrote:
I think that the confusion comes from the design. Most of the DPUB aria roles are from the perspective of a refloable document like HTML and EPUB 3. On the other hand the discussion in this thread looks more oriented towards somewhat like a fixed layout document. 
 
With regards
Avneesh
From: Aaron Leventhal 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 19:56
To: Avneesh Singh 
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol ; White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ; public-publ-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>  ; Joanmarie Diggs 
Subject: Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
 
Thanks, I didn't realize that's where the page number would currently go. I'm not sure it's ideal. 
<span id="pg04" role="doc-pagebreak" title="4"/>
A page break line would likely show up as a horizontal line. Under the horizontal line is a header, then adjacent to that comes the page number. How would that be done in markup?
We don't want 2 page breaks, and the page break and page number aren't in the same place.
<hr role="doc-pagebreak">
<div role="doc-pageheader">
  My header <span role="doc-pagenumber">4</span>
</div>
 
Additionally, in the page break example, the page number usage is in the title attribute, which would not be visible text. Although it's not explained, t's not clear to me from the example or spec text that browsers/ATs could expect a page number inside a child text node.
 
IMO we should have a separate role for page numbers, or put them inside the header or footer objects, but putting them as part of the page break to me will cause a problem with the above example.
Aaron
 
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:17 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com <mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com> > wrote:
doc-pagebreak already exists in DPUB aria roles for locating the page marks. They can have a visible page number as well as invisible page number.
 
 
With regards
Avneesh
From: Aaron Leventhal 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 19:12
To: Leonard Rosenthol 
Cc: White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ; public-publ-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>  ; Joanmarie Diggs 
Subject: Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
 
Thanks Leonard, don't we want to be able to differentiate the headers from the running headers? It's the repeated running headers that users want to skip over.  
The headers that are part of the content seem different, like a <header> in HTML.
 
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 9:35 AM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com> > wrote:
In PDF, we treat page numbers as a separate thing from the header/trailer (and yes, you can have the former inside the latter).  We also have a “class” for bates numbers and a few other vertical-specific elements.   We have found that it is important to be able to unique identify them.
 
Headers and Footers aren’t necessary tied to pages – you could have a section with a header or footer as well, so perhaps just `doc-header` and `doc-footer` (and `doc-pagenum`).
 
Leonard
 
From: Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com <mailto:aleventhal@google.com> >
Date: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 8:55 AM
To: "White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org <mailto:jjwhite@ets.org> >
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com> >, "kerscher@montana.com <mailto:kerscher@montana.com> " <kerscher@montana.com <mailto:kerscher@montana.com> >, "public-publ-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org> " <public-publ-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org> >, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com> >
Subject: Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
 
Sounds good.  
- How about doc-pageheader and doc-pagefooter?
- Possible definition: repeated section of text that appears at the top/bottom of pages in a document, potentially containing a title, page number or other information
- Should the page number get its own role, e.g. doc-pagenum? Should it exist within the doc-pageheader/doc-page-footer?
- Should the new roles inherit from contentinfo?
 
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 8:05 AM White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org <mailto:jjwhite@ets.org> > wrote:
If there’s already a mapping to accessibility APIs via PDF readers, then we could use it here too.
 
Screen readers could offer a command to query this information, if desired, just as there is for window titles.
 
From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com <mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com> >
Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 21:45
To: George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com <mailto:kerscher@montana.com> >, 'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com <mailto:aleventhal@google.com> >, "public-publ-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org> " <public-publ-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org> >
Cc: 'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com> >
Subject: Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
Resent-From: <public-publ-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org> >
Resent-Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 21:45
 
FWIW: Headers & Footers can be properly identified in PDFs and exposed accordingly to AT (so that they aren’t read multiple times).  In fact, PDF/UA (the PDF standard for Universal Accessibility) calls out their usage.
 
Leonard
 
From: "kerscher@montana.com <mailto:kerscher@montana.com> " <kerscher@montana.com <mailto:kerscher@montana.com> >
Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 4:35 PM
To: 'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com <mailto:aleventhal@google.com> >, "public-publ-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org> " <public-publ-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org> >
Cc: 'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com> >
Subject: RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
Resent-From: <public-publ-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org> >
Resent-Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 4:35 PM
 
Hello,
 
This is just my opinion. Running headers and footers are very intrusive while reading. I encounter these many times in PDF documents. The same information is constantly repeated. Fortunately, I do not encounter this while reading EPUB. I can understand that it might be useful for the Reading System to provide “where am I?” information as one is reading, but including this over-and-over again in the content would be horrible.
I am reading using Assistive Technology (AT) and the TTS reads to me. I imagine this would also be painful if a person was using the read aloud function in Reading Systems.
 
I could see the same problem in an audio book. Nobody would want to hear those running heads and footers in the audio book.
 
My $.02
 
Best
George
 
Best
George
 
 
From: Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com <mailto:aleventhal@google.com> > 
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 11:37 AM
To: public-publ-wg@w3.org <mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org> 
Cc: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com> >
Subject: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
 
Hi all,
 
I'm wondering about the plans for doing DPUB-ARIA 2.0 as described under the deliverables:
https://www.w3.org/2017/04/publ-wg-charter/#deliverables <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2017%2F04%2Fpubl-wg-charter%2F%23deliverables&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7C1f3177b1aad7483bafdc08d72646625f%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C637019956061038752&sdata=Td4yIAHV2gqi4AmtVPjMJBR4ImEuKzkCCiquXU8d2%2FQ%3D&reserved=0> 
 
Thanks for what DPUB-ARIA provides so far. Google Docs is going to be using it  to expose semantics for online word processing. We're collaborating with AT vendors and other developers of online word processors as well.
 
One gap is running headers and footers: https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/10 <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fdpub-aria%2Fissues%2F10&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7C1f3177b1aad7483bafdc08d72646625f%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C637019956061048743&sdata=M0rFjMvLOaRr73NGco9mi1Own6qk3nj2uIafAzkgIks%3D&reserved=0>  -- hence the reason for my email and status check :)
 
Thanks for any info,
Aaron
 
 

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