Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

> semantics is essential for presentation
>
Yes, I agree.   But let me phrase it differently to make my original statement more clear.

Presentation can/should be driven by semantics, but semantics should not be driven by presentation.

Leonard

From: "kerscher@montana.com" <kerscher@montana.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 12:49 PM
To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, 'Avneesh Singh' <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>, 'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com>
Cc: "'White, Jason J'" <jjwhite@ets.org>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>, 'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com>
Subject: RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

Hi,

Leonard, you wrote: “How or where that document is presented to a user – be it fixed layout, reflowing, speech (eg. via AT), braille, etc – has NOTHING to do with the semantics.”

I think I must misunderstand the statement above.

Just to be clear, when a heading is presented to me through my screen reader, it says, “”heading level 2 blah, blah, blah. When a list is being presented as “list with four items, blah, blah, blah. And when I encounter the number 34 it is great to hear the semantics that this is a page number, even though the word “page” does not appear in the visible content.
So, semantics is essential for presentation.

Best
George



From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 8:54 AM
To: Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>; Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
Cc: White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>; public-publ-wg@w3.org; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
Subject: RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

That’s interesting that you say that, Avneesh, because it’s not a very accessible view of them.  The roles in dpub-aria are (and should be!) fully independent of technology, layout, etc.  They are the closest thing the web has to markup of a document’s semantic structure.  How or where that document is presented to a user – be it fixed layout, reflowing, speech (eg. via AT), braille, etc – has NOTHING to do with the semantics.

Leonard

From: Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com<mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 10:38 AM
To: Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com<mailto:aleventhal@google.com>>
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>; White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org<mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>>; public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com<mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>
Subject: Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

I think that the confusion comes from the design. Most of the DPUB aria roles are from the perspective of a refloable document like HTML and EPUB 3. On the other hand the discussion in this thread looks more oriented towards somewhat like a fixed layout document.

With regards
Avneesh
From: Aaron Leventhal
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 19:56
To: Avneesh Singh
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol ; White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ; public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org> ; Joanmarie Diggs
Subject: Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

Thanks, I didn't realize that's where the page number would currently go. I'm not sure it's ideal.

<span id="pg04" role="doc-pagebreak" title="4"/>
A page break line would likely show up as a horizontal line. Under the horizontal line is a header, then adjacent to that comes the page number. How would that be done in markup?
We don't want 2 page breaks, and the page break and page number aren't in the same place.
<hr role="doc-pagebreak">
<div role="doc-pageheader">
  My header <span role="doc-pagenumber">4</span>
</div>

Additionally, in the page break example, the page number usage is in the title attribute, which would not be visible text. Although it's not explained, t's not clear to me from the example or spec text that browsers/ATs could expect a page number inside a child text node.

IMO we should have a separate role for page numbers, or put them inside the header or footer objects, but putting them as part of the page break to me will cause a problem with the above example.
Aaron

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:17 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com<mailto:avneesh.sg@gmail.com>> wrote:
doc-pagebreak already exists in DPUB aria roles for locating the page marks. They can have a visible page number as well as invisible page number.


With regards
Avneesh
From: Aaron Leventhal
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 19:12
To: Leonard Rosenthol
Cc: White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ; public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org> ; Joanmarie Diggs
Subject: Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

Thanks Leonard, don't we want to be able to differentiate the headers from the running headers? It's the repeated running headers that users want to skip over.
The headers that are part of the content seem different, like a <header> in HTML.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 9:35 AM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>> wrote:
In PDF, we treat page numbers as a separate thing from the header/trailer (and yes, you can have the former inside the latter).  We also have a “class” for bates numbers and a few other vertical-specific elements.   We have found that it is important to be able to unique identify them.

Headers and Footers aren’t necessary tied to pages – you could have a section with a header or footer as well, so perhaps just `doc-header` and `doc-footer` (and `doc-pagenum`).

Leonard

From: Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com<mailto:aleventhal@google.com>>
Date: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 8:55 AM
To: "White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org<mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>>
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>, "kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>" <kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>" <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com<mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>
Subject: Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

Sounds good.
- How about doc-pageheader and doc-pagefooter?
- Possible definition: repeated section of text that appears at the top/bottom of pages in a document, potentially containing a title, page number or other information
- Should the page number get its own role, e.g. doc-pagenum? Should it exist within the doc-pageheader/doc-page-footer?
- Should the new roles inherit from contentinfo?

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 8:05 AM White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org<mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>> wrote:
If there’s already a mapping to accessibility APIs via PDF readers, then we could use it here too.

Screen readers could offer a command to query this information, if desired, just as there is for window titles.

From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>>
Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 21:45
To: George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>>, 'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com<mailto:aleventhal@google.com>>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>" <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>
Cc: 'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com<mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>
Subject: Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
Resent-From: <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 21:45

FWIW: Headers & Footers can be properly identified in PDFs and exposed accordingly to AT (so that they aren’t read multiple times).  In fact, PDF/UA (the PDF standard for Universal Accessibility) calls out their usage.

Leonard

From: "kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>" <kerscher@montana.com<mailto:kerscher@montana.com>>
Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 4:35 PM
To: 'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com<mailto:aleventhal@google.com>>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>" <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>
Cc: 'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com<mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>
Subject: RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
Resent-From: <public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>>
Resent-Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 4:35 PM

Hello,

This is just my opinion. Running headers and footers are very intrusive while reading. I encounter these many times in PDF documents. The same information is constantly repeated. Fortunately, I do not encounter this while reading EPUB. I can understand that it might be useful for the Reading System to provide “where am I?” information as one is reading, but including this over-and-over again in the content would be horrible.
I am reading using Assistive Technology (AT) and the TTS reads to me. I imagine this would also be painful if a person was using the read aloud function in Reading Systems.

I could see the same problem in an audio book. Nobody would want to hear those running heads and footers in the audio book.

My $.02

Best
George

Best
George


From: Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com<mailto:aleventhal@google.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 11:37 AM
To: public-publ-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-publ-wg@w3.org>
Cc: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com<mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>
Subject: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

Hi all,

I'm wondering about the plans for doing DPUB-ARIA 2.0 as described under the deliverables:
https://www.w3.org/2017/04/publ-wg-charter/#deliverables<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2017%2F04%2Fpubl-wg-charter%2F%23deliverables&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cd2f064d1e5dd423e967f08d72657986e%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637020029989191215&sdata=N91MvSF4y9ThWfSgZ5HFpjmuSVXCej63OguTh021PUY%3D&reserved=0>

Thanks for what DPUB-ARIA provides so far. Google Docs is going to be using it  to expose semantics for online word processing. We're collaborating with AT vendors and other developers of online word processors as well.

One gap is running headers and footers: https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/10<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fdpub-aria%2Fissues%2F10&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cd2f064d1e5dd423e967f08d72657986e%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637020029989191215&sdata=So0fPY0KLW6L2jWD1yS1zhcFdFyA%2FfRGeqJPjkvk6Ww%3D&reserved=0> -- hence the reason for my email and status check :)

Thanks for any info,
Aaron


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