Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

The pagebreak marker as specified in EPUB  was intentionally an empty
phrase-level element so that it can be placed before the first word on the
indicated page. It should be agnostic whether the pages are fixed or
reflowing. If fixed, and if the folio (the page number) needs to be
rendered, then that requires other markup because <span id="pg04"
role="doc-pagebreak" title="4">4</span> wouldn't be sufficient.

One other nuance: the folio (the rendered page number) is not necessarily
the same as the sequential position in the publication. Most books number
frontmatter with roman numerals. So for that page 4 example, if it's in a
book with twelve pages of frontmatter, you would more likely have <span
id="pg16" role="doc-pagebreak" title="4"/>: the folio of the 16th page is 4.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:56 AM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
wrote:

> I’m in agreement with you on this one Aaron.  Page number is completely
> separate from the page break, because (as you note) they can appear
> (visually) at various spots in the content that have nothing to do with
> break points…
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From:* Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 10:27 AM
> *To:* Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>; White, Jason J <
> jjwhite@ets.org>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>;
> public-publ-wg@w3.org; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
>
>
> Thanks, I didn't realize that's where the page number would currently go.
> I'm not sure it's ideal.
>
> <span id="pg04" role="doc-pagebreak" title="4"/>
>
> A page break line would likely show up as a horizontal line. Under the
> horizontal line is a header, then adjacent to that comes the page number.
> How would that be done in markup?
>
> We don't want 2 page breaks, and the page break and page number aren't in
> the same place.
>
> <hr role="doc-pagebreak">
>
> <div role="doc-pageheader">
>
>   My header <span role="doc-pagenumber">4</span>
>
> </div>
>
>
>
> Additionally, in the page break example, the page number usage is in the
> title attribute, which would not be visible text. Although it's not
> explained, t's not clear to me from the example or spec text that
> browsers/ATs could expect a page number inside a child text node.
>
>
>
> IMO we should have a separate role for page numbers, or put them inside
> the header or footer objects, but putting them as part of the page break to
> me will cause a problem with the above example.
>
> Aaron
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:17 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> doc-pagebreak already exists in DPUB aria roles for locating the page
> marks. They can have a visible page number as well as invisible page number.
>
>
>
>
>
> With regards
>
> Avneesh
>
> *From:* Aaron Leventhal
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 19:12
>
> *To:* Leonard Rosenthol
>
> *Cc:* White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ; public-publ-wg@w3.org ;
> Joanmarie Diggs
>
> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
>
>
> Thanks Leonard, don't we want to be able to differentiate the headers from
> the running headers? It's the repeated running headers that users want to
> skip over.
>
> The headers that are part of the content seem different, like a <header>
> in HTML.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 9:35 AM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> wrote:
>
> In PDF, we treat page numbers as a separate thing from the header/trailer
> (and yes, you can have the former inside the latter).  We also have a
> “class” for bates numbers and a few other vertical-specific elements.   We
> have found that it is important to be able to unique identify them.
>
>
>
> Headers and Footers aren’t necessary tied to pages – you could have a
> section with a header or footer as well, so perhaps just `doc-header` and
> `doc-footer` (and `doc-pagenum`).
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 8:55 AM
> *To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, "kerscher@montana.com" <
> kerscher@montana.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>,
> Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
> *Subject: *Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
>
>
> Sounds good.
>
> - How about doc-pageheader and doc-pagefooter?
>
> - Possible definition: repeated section of text that appears at the
> top/bottom of pages in a document, potentially containing a title, page
> number or other information
>
> - Should the page number get its own role, e.g. doc-pagenum? Should it
> exist within the doc-pageheader/doc-page-footer?
>
> - Should the new roles inherit from contentinfo?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 8:05 AM White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>
> If there’s already a mapping to accessibility APIs via PDF readers, then
> we could use it here too.
>
>
>
> Screen readers could offer a command to query this information, if
> desired, just as there is for window titles.
>
>
>
> *From: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 21:45
> *To: *George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>, 'Aaron Leventhal' <
> aleventhal@google.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> *Cc: *'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com>
> *Subject: *Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
> *Resent-From: *<public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 21:45
>
>
>
> FWIW: Headers & Footers can be properly identified in PDFs and exposed
> accordingly to AT (so that they aren’t read multiple times).  In fact,
> PDF/UA (the PDF standard for Universal Accessibility) calls out their usage.
>
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
>
> *From: *"kerscher@montana.com" <kerscher@montana.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 4:35 PM
> *To: *'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <
> public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> *Cc: *'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com>
> *Subject: *RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
> *Resent-From: *<public-publ-wg@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 4:35 PM
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> This is just my opinion. Running headers and footers are very intrusive
> while reading. I encounter these many times in PDF documents. The same
> information is constantly repeated. Fortunately, I do not encounter this
> while reading EPUB. I can understand that it might be useful for the
> Reading System to provide “where am I?” information as one is reading, but
> including this over-and-over again in the content would be horrible.
>
> I am reading using Assistive Technology (AT) and the TTS reads to me. I
> imagine this would also be painful if a person was using the read aloud
> function in Reading Systems.
>
>
>
> I could see the same problem in an audio book. Nobody would want to hear
> those running heads and footers in the audio book.
>
>
>
> My $.02
>
>
>
> Best
>
> George
>
>
>
> Best
>
> George
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2019 11:37 AM
> *To:* public-publ-wg@w3.org
> *Cc:* Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
> *Subject:* Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering about the plans for doing DPUB-ARIA 2.0 as described under
> the deliverables:
>
> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/publ-wg-charter/#deliverables
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2017%2F04%2Fpubl-wg-charter%2F%23deliverables&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C8755096534af4c7297cb08d726439a64%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637019944112968109&sdata=R0qzNRVjN8BlA6%2FZHoQfgBsQ7pA%2BmBbh5LIqvG3EWeE%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> Thanks for what DPUB-ARIA provides so far. Google Docs is going to be
> using it  to expose semantics for online word processing. We're
> collaborating with AT vendors and other developers of online word
> processors as well.
>
>
>
> One gap is running headers and footers:
> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/10
> <https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fdpub-aria%2Fissues%2F10&data=02%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7C8755096534af4c7297cb08d726439a64%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C637019944112978102&sdata=aeFpfEGHaA6A6VB1SZ05dvknCCVQDGqPtVGqfLbZoyU%3D&reserved=0>
> -- hence the reason for my email and status check :)
>
>
>
> Thanks for any info,
>
> Aaron
>
>
>
>
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-- 
*Bill Kasdorf*
*Principal, Kasdorf & Associates, LLC*

*Founding Partner, Publishing Technology Partners
<https://pubtechpartners.com/>*
kasdorf.bill@gmail.com
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