- From: Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
- Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 19:13:40 +0530
- To: "Baldur Bjarnason" <baldur@rebus.foundation>
- Cc: "Romain" <rdeltour@gmail.com>, <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
Sure, going to some technical detail is important, it depends on the depth to which one should go while defining principles. Having a common definition is good, but we may not spend too much time on word smith. Personally, I would be ok to see a list of bullet points for defining WP. With regards Avneesh -----Original Message----- From: Baldur Bjarnason Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 18:23 To: Avneesh Singh Cc: Romain ; public-publ-wg@w3.org Subject: Re: definition of Web Publication IMNSHO, you cannot author a usefully guiding principle for technical development without getting into technical issues and implementation specifics. But that has been declared as off-topic. - best - Baldur Bjarnason baldur@rebus.foundation > On 26 Jul 2017, at 12:50, Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com> wrote: > > As per my interpretation of discussions in Monday’s call, the objective > was to have common agreement on definition, to act as guiding principle > for technical development. > > With regards > Avneesh > From: Romain > Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 18:00 > To: public-publ-wg@w3.org > Subject: Re: definition of Web Publication > > > Hi everyone, > > Sorry to deviate slightly from the discussion, but... we're reaching 40+ > answers already in this thread, and despite seeing some progress towards > consensus and having read some interesting points, I'm not sure I > understand the point of the thread [*]. > > Are we trying to wordsmith a definition that would end up in the spec? or > are we trying to get a general agreement on a web publication, to all be > on the same page? > > In the first case, I would suggest to wait until the technical details of > the spec are more advanced, and a definition would probably come much more > naturally. Getting the technical points right is more important to the > success of our WG IMO, especially given the aggressive timeframe. > > In the latter case, I think we probably all have a more or less converging > view of what is a Web publication. The devil's in the details, but > tackling these details will be more enlightening than just discussing an > abstract definition. > > Again, it's just my personal opinion, feel free to disagree. > > Romain. > > [*] besides, perhaps, trying to break the record set by the 90-or-so-reply > thread in the IG. > >> On 26 Jul 2017, at 14:02, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> A general +1 to everything you've said, Luc. I also prefer Greg's >> original wording. I only wonder if it would make sense to be even more >> explicit that we're creating a work out of the resources, and that's what >> makes a publication unique. For example: >> >> A Web Publication is an explicitly authored/created collection of one or >> more constituent resources, bound together through a manifest into a >> single logical work with a defined though not necessarily required >> reading order. The Web Publication is uniquely identifiable, presentable >> using Open Web Platform technologies, and available online or off. >> >> (As a side note, I hate acronyms in specifications and would prefer we >> avoid WP as a shorthand, even if we use it for simplicity in >> discussions.) >> >> Matt >> >> From: AUDRAIN LUC [mailto:LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr] >> Sent: July 26, 2017 4:32 AM >> To: Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>; Matt Garrish >> <matt.garrish@gmail.com>; 'Garth Conboy' <garth@google.com>; 'Laurent Le >> Meur' <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org> >> Cc: 'Leonard Rosenthol' <lrosenth@adobe.com>; 'Greg Albers' >> <GAlbers@getty.edu>; public-publ-wg@w3.org >> Subject: Re: definition of Web Publication >> >> Hi, >> >> Boundedness/boudaries and creator intent: Work >> This is where the library FRBR model brought us in IG to speak about « >> “manifested” (in the FRBR [frbr] sense) ». >> There is a boundary around what has been chosen, curated, included in the >> WP by the creator/editor. >> • I use creator and not author, so that we don’t think it is only for >> books… IMO, it is also relevant for any document >> • I think it is more than « organized ». In the « FRBR sense », it brings >> the idea of a manifestation of a work. >> • The creator's intent makes him create and/or choose content that >> represent for him/her an intellectual idea, the work. >> • A WP is a possibility to manifest in digital form this work >> >> This confort the idea that a WP differs from a website by its manifest >> (that should reflect somehow the manifestation boundaries) >> => I support Greg’s wording « A Web Publication (WP) is a[n explicitly >> authored/created] collection of one or more constituent resources, bound >> together » >> >> Controlled updating: >> We shouldn’t limit these boundaries to « static content ». >> I like here the idea brought by Jason « an algorithm »: WP content should >> be updatable under the control of a creator algorithm. >> This kind of updating includes the dynamic view of the web in the >> boundaries of the WP. >> >> Out of bounds: a generic link to a Web page that may disappear in time is >> IMO >> Within bounds: an internal process included by the creator in a WP making >> a call to a controlled set of data from a reliable source >> >> => the WP Definition should somehow reflects this essential processable >> nature of WP, perhaps in adding that algorithm are among the primary >> resources? >> >> Best, >> Luc >> >> De : Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com> >> Date : mercredi 26 juillet 2017 à 05:57 >> À : Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com>, 'Garth Conboy' >> <garth@google.com>, 'Laurent Le Meur' <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org> >> Cc : 'Leonard Rosenthol' <lrosenth@adobe.com>, 'Greg Albers' >> <GAlbers@getty.edu>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org> >> Objet : Re: definition of Web Publication >> Renvoyer - De : <public-publ-wg@w3.org> >> Renvoyer - Date : mercredi 26 juillet 2017 à 05:57 >> >> We have developed a lot of usecases on basis of current stage of >> publishing industry, which is good. >> At the same time, the publishing industry is likely to evolve with time, >> and soon we may see the publications that are updated on weekly or even >> daily basis. >> I see the following differences between publications and webpages. >> 1. Publisher defined Boundaries and reading order for at least primary >> resources. >> 2. Well defined information about major and minor updates. >> 3. well defined metadata (point 2 is also related to it). >> 4. Online as well as offline access. >> >> With regards >> Avneesh >> From: Matt Garrish >> Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 05:09 >> To: 'Garth Conboy' ; 'Laurent Le Meur' >> Cc: 'Leonard Rosenthol' ; 'Greg Albers' ; public-publ-wg@w3.org >> Subject: RE: definition of Web Publication >> >> The phrase "intentional curation" sounds more like what web publications >> enable than a characteristic of the content, although I appreciate what >> is being sought with it. >> >> And leaving out boundedness from the definition while it was heavily >> emphasized in the vision document doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What >> makes publications unique from web pages is the idea that they represent >> a bounded work, even if the bound is a single document. If that's not >> true, then can we really call these "web publications" or are they just >> "identifiable document sets on the web"? >> >> Matt >> >> From: Garth Conboy [mailto:garth@google.com] >> Sent: July 25, 2017 5:12 PM >> To: Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org> >> Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>; Greg Albers >> <GAlbers@getty.edu>; public-publ-wg@w3.org >> Subject: Re: definition of Web Publication >> >> And to a certain extent these "bounds" could also be the part of the >> publication that is published on the publication date, and can be >> expected not to change without a new publication. This lack of change >> after publication is key to me (or at least some way to get back to the >> "originally published content") -- signatures may play a role here. >> >> Best, >> Garth >> >> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Laurent Le Meur >> <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org> wrote: >>> The bounds of a WP are IMO the resources that will be packaged when a >>> PWP is created. Take the exemple of an html page (a primary resource of >>> a WP) containing a video hosted on YouTube. The video content will stay >>> out of the boundaries of the PWP. We can package some constituents of a >>> WP, not all of them. >>> >>> Laurent >>> >>>> Le 25 juil. 2017 à 22:20, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> a >>>> écrit : >>>> >>>> I don’t understand how a user would ever know (or care) about the >>>> “bounds” of a WP. Can you give an example? >>>> >>>> At its simplest, a PWP is a WP that has been packaged up into a single >>>> physical container of content (ala EPUB). Beyond that, we still have >>>> lots of work to do to understand how (if at all) it would differ from a >>>> WP. >>>> >>>> On the “states” issue, we spent a *lot* of time in the IG trying to use >>>> that states model and when we presented it to the rest of the W3C it >>>> was too confusing for many as it’s a very complex grid. It’s also not >>>> clear whether we actually need all the various differences in that grid >>>> given many things going on with the OWP itself… >>>> >>>> Leonard >>>> >>>> From: Greg Albers <GAlbers@getty.edu> >>>> Date: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:30 PM >>>> To: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> >>>> Cc: Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>, >>>> "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org> >>>> Subject: Re: definition of Web Publication >>>> >>>> Thanks all. Glad to be here and I think, now that I gave the w3c >>>> permission to archive my posts, they'll show up here normally. >>>> >>>> Leonard, good thoughts, thanks! On this though: >>>> >>>> ? “bound” vs. organized: The word bound, to me, feels more like >>>> packaging – and so I think we should avoid it for now. But it’s a good >>>> word for when we get to PWP >>>> >>>> I would argue that a Web Publication, whether packaged or not, must >>>> have a sense of boundedness. That those boundaries and a users implicit >>>> or explicit understanding of them are a key to exactly what >>>> distinguishes a web publication from a website. Particularly from a >>>> user's (reader's) perspective, whereas yes, I think from a user agent's >>>> perspective, it is the manifest. That makes a lot of sense to me. >>>> >>>> A related question I had for you all was around the distinction between >>>> a WP and a PWP. To me packaging is a state of a WP not a separate >>>> entity from it. And even in our charter it states the PWP as >>>> something that we might define and spec out but that we might not >>>> depending on activities elsewhere in the w3c. Shouldn't then our >>>> definition of a WP encompass its states more holistically. Online v >>>> offline, packaged v not packaged, with everything v only with essential >>>> resources, etc...? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Jul 25, 2017, at 10:54 AM, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Greg had an excellent point about curation, so let me try to add that >>>>> in using a term that we’ve been trying out here (so feedback on that >>>>> welcome too) >>>>> >>>>> A Web Publication (WP) is an intentionally curated collection of one >>>>> or more Web resources organized together through a manifest and >>>>> presented to users using Open Web Platform technologies. >>>>> >>>>> There were some other things in the suggestion that I didn’t take and >>>>> I’d like to explain >>>>> ? “bound” vs. organized: The word bound, to me, feels more like >>>>> packaging – and so I think we should avoid it for now. But it’s a >>>>> good word for when we get to PWP >>>>> ? “uniquely identifiable grouping”: As we have discussed, >>>>> identification of a WP is a separate issue so that doesn’t belong in >>>>> the definition >>>>> ? “reading order”: Having this in the manifest definition, I saw >>>>> no need to duplicate it in the WP definition. >>>>> >>>>> Leonard >>>>> >>>>> From: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> >>>>> Date: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 1:34 PM >>>>> To: Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org>, >>>>> "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org> >>>>> Subject: Re: definition of Web Publication >>>>> Resent-From: <public-publ-wg@w3.org> >>>>> Resent-Date: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 1:34 PM >>>>> >>>>> Laurent - good rewrites, but let me play with it a bit… >>>>> >>>>> Do we really need the middle sentence? It doesn’t say anything useful >>>>> (IMO). The first and third, however are good. We can then put it >>>>> all together as: >>>>> >>>>> A Web Publication (WP) is a collection of one or more Web resources >>>>> organized together through a manifest and presented to users using >>>>> Open Web Platform technologies. >>>>> >>>>> Now to apply some simplification to the Manifest definition: >>>>> >>>>> A manifest is structured information about a Web Publication, such as >>>>> informative metadata and the default reading order of its primary >>>>> constituents. >>>>> >>>>> I’m not thrilled with that since it’s still not clear to me if we want >>>>> all that stuff (metadata + resources + reading order + ….) in a single >>>>> “manifest” *or* we will end up with multiple ones (but even then, it >>>>> may still conceptually be a manifest). >>>>> >>>>> Thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Leonard >>>>> >>>>> From: Laurent Le Meur <laurent.lemeur@edrlab.org> >>>>> Date: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 11:38 AM >>>>> To: "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org> >>>>> Cc: W3C Publishing Working Group <public-publ-wg@w3.org> >>>>> Subject: Re: definition of Web Publication >>>>> Resent-From: <public-publ-wg@w3.org> >>>>> Resent-Date: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 11:38 AM >>>>> >>>>> The current definition is facing a large set of comments. From these >>>>> comments, I tried a variant of Matt's proposal: >>>>> >>>>> A Web Publication (WP) is a collection of one or more Web resources >>>>> organized together through a manifest. The content of a Web >>>>> Publication can take a wide variety of forms, from formal artistic and >>>>> intellectual works to ad hoc documents and memos. Web Publications are >>>>> presented to end-users using Open Web Platform technologies. >>>>> >>>>> A manifest is the structured information necessary for the proper >>>>> identification and description of a Web Publication, plus the default >>>>> reading order of its primary constituents. >>>>> >>>>> Laurent >
Received on Wednesday, 26 July 2017 13:44:08 UTC