- From: Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org>
- Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 07:37:46 +0100
- To: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
- CC: public-prov-wg@w3.org
One might just delete the word "causal"? The real essence is captured by "needs to have existed" IMO. #g -- Luc Moreau wrote: > Hi Graham, > > Thanks for the quote ;-) > > Paulo, during the life of the Incubator, repeatedly criticized the > notion of "causal relationship". > In what way is this causal? It's a bit like using the term "influence" > discussed earlier. > > Regards, > Luc > > On 08/06/11 18:47, Graham Klyne wrote: >> I've added something based on OPM, which always made sense to me: >> >> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation#Definition_adapted_by_Graham >> >> >> #g >> -- >> >> Luc Moreau wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> Another perspective on derivation: >>> >>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation#Definition_by_Luc >>> >>> Luc >>> >>> On 06/08/2011 10:33 AM, Luc Moreau wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Paul and Daniel. >>>> >>>> On 06/08/2011 10:13 AM, Paul Groth wrote: >>>>> Hi Luc, all: >>>>> >>>>> Is it really necessary to go down this road of defining influence. >>>>> I have this fear that we will never bottom out. >>>> >>>> Agreed. >>>>> >>>>> There are certain concepts that need to be defined terminologically >>>>> others may not. It depends on what are the core building blocks of >>>>> the model are. >>>> >>>> I suppose we wouldn't want the standard model to be >>>> over-constraining, to allow for many forms of derivations (in >>>> physical, digital, conceptual contexts). >>>> >>>> So, what are the (minimum) properties that need to be satisfied in >>>> order to qualify as a derivation? >>>> >>>> Luc >>>>> >>>>> Paul >>>>> >>>>> Luc Moreau wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> Having identified a concept of Invariant View or Perspective on >>>>>> Thing (IVPT), I'd like to go back >>>>>> to the meaning of Derivation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Several of you indicated that Derivation expresses that one IVPT >>>>>> was influenced by another IVPT. >>>>>> >>>>>> Paolo has asked what does it mean to 'influence'? It's a good >>>>>> question! >>>>>> >>>>>> Will we be able to define a notion of influence that applies for >>>>>> all things, >>>>>> whether physical, digital, conceptual, or other? Should we go >>>>>> down the road of >>>>>> modelling influence in specific domains? >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> Luc >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 27/05/11 20:34, Stephan Zednik wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 27, 2011, at 5:04 AM, Daniel Garijo wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Luc, all >>>>>>>> In the example c2 is also a derivation of d2, and from my point >>>>>>>> of view, >>>>>>>> c2 could also be seen as a derivation from c1, since it is the >>>>>>>> chart taken as reference >>>>>>>> and corected in c2... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for your second question, I think that if we want to be able >>>>>>>> to cover >>>>>>>> provenance from resources, resources representations and >>>>>>>> resources state >>>>>>>> representation, a derivation must be able to refer to all of them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What do you think? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From the existing example/scenario section on Derivation: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A derivation is a relation between two Resource State >>>>>>> Representations that expresses that one RSR was influenced by the >>>>>>> other RSR. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A agree that a derivation should be a relation between two like >>>>>>> resource abstractions, and I agree with Daniel in that I am not >>>>>>> sure we should limit it to RSR. I believe one Resource could be >>>>>>> derived from another Resource, and same with Resource State. I >>>>>>> also believe derivation covers a large spectrum of relationships >>>>>>> - FRBR has covered some of this ground on the wide spectrum of >>>>>>> different types of derivation so thankfully we do not have to >>>>>>> start from scratch. Stories can be derived from other stores, >>>>>>> editions of publications are derived from earlier editions, >>>>>>> adaptions are derived works, translations are derived >>>>>>> expressions, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I suggest an quick overview of FRBR's conclusions on derivations >>>>>>> to provide direction. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also agree with the suggestion that Version be a specialization >>>>>>> / subtype of Derivation, as suggested in the Version section of >>>>>>> the existing example/scenario. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --Stephan >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Daniel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2011/5/27 Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk >>>>>>>> <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Over the last week, we debated the notion of resource >>>>>>>> (PROV-ISSUE-1), >>>>>>>> one of the concepts identified in the charter as core to a >>>>>>>> provenance >>>>>>>> data model. It would be good to discuss the notion of >>>>>>>> derivation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Do we agree with the illustration of derivation [1]: >>>>>>>> in the example, chart c1 is a derivation of data set d1. >>>>>>>> Are there other interesting illustrations? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is derivation relating resources/resource >>>>>>>> representations/resource >>>>>>>> representation states? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Luc >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [1] >>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 05/20/2011 08:07 AM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> PROV-ISSUE-7 (define-derivation): Definition for Concept >>>>>>>> 'Derivation' [Provenance Terminology] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/7 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Raised by: Luc Moreau >>>>>>>> On product: Provenance Terminology >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The Provenance WG charter identifies the concept >>>>>>>> 'Derivation' as a core concept of the provenance >>>>>>>> interchange >>>>>>>> language to be standardized (see >>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What term do we adopt for the concept 'Derivation'? >>>>>>>> How do we define the concept 'Derivation'? >>>>>>>> Where does concept 'Derivation' appear in >>>>>>>> ProvenanceExample? >>>>>>>> Which provenance query requires the concept 'Derivation'? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wiki page: >>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- Professor Luc Moreau >>>>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science tel: +44 23 8059 4487 >>>>>>>> University of Southampton fax: +44 23 8059 2865 >>>>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ email: >>>>>>>> l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> >>>>>>>> United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm >>>>>>>> <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7Elavm> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>> >> >
Received on Thursday, 9 June 2011 06:38:52 UTC