- From: Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org>
- Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 09:06:07 +0100
- To: Simon Miles <simon.miles@kcl.ac.uk>
- CC: Provenance Working Group WG <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
I agree with Simon, especially para 2. (Am I making a habit of this?) #g -- Simon Miles wrote: > Hi Khalid, all, > > These are really good points, and makes me think: > - If an agent starts or stops a process execution (as in Satya's > definition) then why is that any different to one process execution > initiating or terminating another process execution? > - Is the action of a person a process execution? If so, and the > action is adequately described, then haven't we just specified the > involvement and identity of the person in the provenance? > > I agree with Jun that if we want to describe the provenance of an > agent then we are treating it as a "resource", but Khalid's point that > we still need to say they are the same (this agent = this resource) > seems correct. On a separate thread, Jim said (if I read correctly) > that the idea of agent may not be needed if mutable resources were > allowed, as a person is just a mutable resource. We can take an > invariant view of a person in provenance, i.e. assume they don't > change in any way we consider significant. > > The significant differences of an agent from an execution or resource > seem to be that we may want to express its involvement in an execution > without saying exactly by what actions it was involved, and that it > seems odd to say that a process execution "used" the person who was > involved with it as we would with resources (which we could also say > are "involved" with the execution). > > Thanks, > Simon > > On 7 June 2011 19:17, Khalid Belhajjame <Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk> wrote: >> Hi Daniel, Jun and Satya, >> >> I think this is a good point. I was wondering before this thread start, >> whether the same "thing" can be treated as "agent" and "process execution". >> For example a process execution pe_1 may initiates the execution of >> another process execution pe_2, in which case, pe_1 can be viewed as an >> agent. >> >> So a legitimate question that we may need to create an independent issue >> for is: "is it possible for the same 'thing' to be 'invariant' and >> 'agent' and 'process execution'?" >> >> My first thought is that the notion of "view or account" will be useful >> in this respect. >> >> Thanks, khalid >> >> On 07/06/2011 17:35, Jun Zhao wrote: >>> Satya, >>> >>> Would you also expect agents to have states, aka resources? >>> >>> I would prefer to keep agent simple. That's why I suggest to treat >>> agents as resources, if you want to talk about provenance of that sort >>> of things. In this way, we can reuse of a lot of structure associated >>> with resources. >>> >>> This is just one way of modelling. Of course, if we do agree to have >>> states for agents, we will need a different way to represent it in the >>> model. >>> >>> I am open to discussions. >>> >>> -- Jun >>> >>> On 07/06/11 17:17, Satya Sahoo wrote: >>>> Hi Daniel and Jun, >>>>> After reading your definitions I was wondering if an "agent" or a >>>> "controller" could >>>> also have provenance. >>>> >>>> Agents can also have provenance - in sensor networks the provenance of >>>> the sensor itself will describe its manufacturer, date of manufacture >>>> etc. >>>> >>>>> if the newspaper or a service is an agent, then it would be helpful >>>> to know who created it, when, what tools were used for doing so,etc. >>>> >>>> If newspaper is treated as an agent in the sense of a corporate entity, >>>> e.g. NYT - we can describe its actions - NYT sued NYC, NYT publishes >>>> four dailies etc. and its provenance - NYT was founded/created by Henry >>>> Raymond in 1851 etc. >>>> >>>> If you meant newspaper as an edition/publication of NYT (today's >>>> edition), then it would be a "resource". I am not sure what you meant by >>>> service? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Satya >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Jun Zhao <jun.zhao@zoo.ox.ac.uk >>>> <mailto:jun.zhao@zoo.ox.ac.uk>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Daniel, >>>> >>>> I would expect to have descriptions about agents. >>>> >>>> When providing provenance descriptions about newspaper or services, >>>> it might be more appropriate to treat them as "resources". >>>> >>>> -- Jun >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 07/06/11 16:19, Daniel Garijo wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Satya, Khalid, all >>>> After reading your definitions I was wondering if an "agent" >>>> or a >>>> "controller" could >>>> also have provenance. For example, if the newspaper or a service >>>> is an >>>> agent, then it would be >>>> helpful to know who created it, when, what tools were used for >>>> doing so, >>>> etc. >>>> >>>> If they could have provenance, then they would also become some >>>> sort of >>>> "resources" >>>> too, wouldn't they? >>>> >>>> What do you think? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Daniel >>>> >>>> 2011/6/6 Khalid Belhajjame <Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk >>>> <mailto:Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk> >>>> <mailto:Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk >>>> <mailto:Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I added a definition of the concept "agent". >>>> >>>> Definition: An agent is a (physical or digital) entity that >>>> controls >>>> one or multiple process executions >>>> >>>> - The newspaper, the blogger and the government portal are >>>> examples >>>> of agents >>>> >>>> I would prefer to use the term “controller” instead of >>>> “agent”. To >>>> me, the term “agent” is a bit vague. >>>> >>>> Thanks, khalid >>>> >>>> >>>> On 20/05/2011 08:04, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> PROV-ISSUE-4 (define-agent): Definition for Concept >>>> 'Agent' >>>> [Provenance Terminology] >>>> >>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/4 >>>> >>>> Raised by: Luc Moreau >>>> On product: Provenance Terminology >>>> >>>> The Provenance WG charter identifies the concept 'Agent' >>>> as a >>>> core concept of the provenance interchange language >>>> to be >>>> standardized (see >>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter). >>>> >>>> What term do we adopt for the concept 'Agent'? >>>> How do we define the concept 'Agent'? >>>> Where does concept 'Agent' appear in ProvenanceExample? >>>> Which provenance query requires the concept 'Agent'? >>>> >>>> Wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptAgent >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. >> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> > > >
Received on Wednesday, 8 June 2011 11:12:42 UTC