- From: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
- Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 11:38:12 +0100
- To: Paul Groth <pgroth@gmail.com>
- CC: public-prov-wg@w3.org
Hi Paul, I have updated the entry, i think it can work with information too. Luc On 06/08/2011 11:06 AM, Paul Groth wrote: > Hi Luc, > > What if you replaced information by "stuff"? > > transfer of stuff from one thing to another. > > This is only half suggested in jest... > > Paul > > Luc Moreau wrote: >> Hi all, >> Another perspective on derivation: >> >> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation#Definition_by_Luc >> >> Luc >> >> On 06/08/2011 10:33 AM, Luc Moreau wrote: >>> >>> Hi Paul and Daniel. >>> >>> On 06/08/2011 10:13 AM, Paul Groth wrote: >>>> Hi Luc, all: >>>> >>>> Is it really necessary to go down this road of defining influence. >>>> I have this fear that we will never bottom out. >>> >>> Agreed. >>>> >>>> There are certain concepts that need to be defined terminologically >>>> others may not. It depends on what are the core building blocks of >>>> the model are. >>> >>> I suppose we wouldn't want the standard model to be >>> over-constraining, to allow for many forms of derivations (in >>> physical, digital, conceptual contexts). >>> >>> So, what are the (minimum) properties that need to be satisfied in >>> order to qualify as a derivation? >>> >>> Luc >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> Luc Moreau wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> Having identified a concept of Invariant View or Perspective on >>>>> Thing (IVPT), I'd like to go back >>>>> to the meaning of Derivation. >>>>> >>>>> Several of you indicated that Derivation expresses that one IVPT >>>>> was influenced by another IVPT. >>>>> >>>>> Paolo has asked what does it mean to 'influence'? It's a good >>>>> question! >>>>> >>>>> Will we be able to define a notion of influence that applies for >>>>> all things, >>>>> whether physical, digital, conceptual, or other? Should we go >>>>> down the road of >>>>> modelling influence in specific domains? >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Luc >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 27/05/11 20:34, Stephan Zednik wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 27, 2011, at 5:04 AM, Daniel Garijo wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Luc, all >>>>>>> In the example c2 is also a derivation of d2, and from my point >>>>>>> of view, >>>>>>> c2 could also be seen as a derivation from c1, since it is the >>>>>>> chart taken as reference >>>>>>> and corected in c2... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for your second question, I think that if we want to be able >>>>>>> to cover >>>>>>> provenance from resources, resources representations and >>>>>>> resources state >>>>>>> representation, a derivation must be able to refer to all of them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What do you think? >>>>>> >>>>>> From the existing example/scenario section on Derivation: >>>>>> >>>>>> A derivation is a relation between two Resource State >>>>>> Representations that expresses that one RSR was influenced by the >>>>>> other RSR. >>>>>> >>>>>> A agree that a derivation should be a relation between two like >>>>>> resource abstractions, and I agree with Daniel in that I am not >>>>>> sure we should limit it to RSR. I believe one Resource could be >>>>>> derived from another Resource, and same with Resource State. I >>>>>> also believe derivation covers a large spectrum of relationships >>>>>> - FRBR has covered some of this ground on the wide spectrum of >>>>>> different types of derivation so thankfully we do not have to >>>>>> start from scratch. Stories can be derived from other stores, >>>>>> editions of publications are derived from earlier editions, >>>>>> adaptions are derived works, translations are derived >>>>>> expressions, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> I suggest an quick overview of FRBR's conclusions on derivations >>>>>> to provide direction. >>>>>> >>>>>> I also agree with the suggestion that Version be a specialization >>>>>> / subtype of Derivation, as suggested in the Version section of >>>>>> the existing example/scenario. >>>>>> >>>>>> --Stephan >>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Daniel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2011/5/27 Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk >>>>>>> <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Over the last week, we debated the notion of resource >>>>>>> (PROV-ISSUE-1), >>>>>>> one of the concepts identified in the charter as core to a >>>>>>> provenance >>>>>>> data model. It would be good to discuss the notion of >>>>>>> derivation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do we agree with the illustration of derivation [1]: >>>>>>> in the example, chart c1 is a derivation of data set d1. >>>>>>> Are there other interesting illustrations? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is derivation relating resources/resource >>>>>>> representations/resource >>>>>>> representation states? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Luc >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [1] >>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 05/20/2011 08:07 AM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PROV-ISSUE-7 (define-derivation): Definition for Concept >>>>>>> 'Derivation' [Provenance Terminology] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/7 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Raised by: Luc Moreau >>>>>>> On product: Provenance Terminology >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Provenance WG charter identifies the concept >>>>>>> 'Derivation' as a core concept of the provenance >>>>>>> interchange >>>>>>> language to be standardized (see >>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What term do we adopt for the concept 'Derivation'? >>>>>>> How do we define the concept 'Derivation'? >>>>>>> Where does concept 'Derivation' appear in >>>>>>> ProvenanceExample? >>>>>>> Which provenance query requires the concept 'Derivation'? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wiki page: >>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- Professor Luc Moreau >>>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science tel: +44 23 8059 4487 >>>>>>> University of Southampton fax: +44 23 8059 2865 >>>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ email: >>>>>>> l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> >>>>>>> United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm >>>>>>> <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7Elavm> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> -- Professor Luc Moreau Electronics and Computer Science tel: +44 23 8059 4487 University of Southampton fax: +44 23 8059 2865 Southampton SO17 1BJ email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
Received on Wednesday, 8 June 2011 10:38:44 UTC