Draft minutes: 5 February 2013 call

The draft minutes from the February 5 voice conference are available at 
<http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-minutes.html> and copied below.

WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send 
them to the public-pointer-events mail list before 12 February 2013. In 
the absence of any changes, these minutes will be considered approved.

-AB


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    Pointer Events WG Voice Conference

05 Feb 2013

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0061.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Art_Barstow, Scott_Gonzalez, Matt_Brubeck,
           Doug_Schepers, Jacob_Rossi, Asir_Vedamuthu, Cathy_Chan

    Regrets
           Rick_Byers, Olli_Pettay

    Chair
           Art

    Scribe
           Art

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Agenda
          2. [6]Making click/contextmenu use PointerEvent interface
          3. [7]Mapping for devices that don't support hover and
             CSS :hover; bug 20222
          4. [8]Transformed Pointer Coordinates?
          5. [9]PE spec comments by Cathy
          6. [10]Pointer events – active buttons state & pen
             devices
          7. [11]Pointer Events Open Bugs
          8. [12]Any other Business
      * [13]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <scribe> Scribe: Art

    <scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB

    Date: 5 February 2013

    <mbrubeck> Good morning, Art.

Agenda

    AB: I posted a draft agenda a couple of days ago
    [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0061.html. Since then there has been a relatively
    significant amount of activity on various agenda topics.
    ... we could now try to sort out what needs to be dropped,
    changed, added; or, it could be more time efficient to just
    stick with the draft agenda and adjust it accordingly as we
    proceed.
    ... we can also add a discussion about LC plans to the AoB
    section.
    ... is that OK? Any other proposed additions

      [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0061.html.

    JR: want to walk through some of my e-mails

    AB: sure, that's fine

Making click/contextmenu use PointerEvent interface

    AB: this topic was raised by Rick a few weeks ago
    [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0024.html and we talked about it last week
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2013/01/29-pointerevents-minutes.html#ite
    m02.
    ... it appears we still need feedback from Rick so I propose we
    postpone this topic and I can assign an Action to  Rick to
    reply to this thread. OK?

      [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0024.html
      [16] http://www.w3.org/2013/01/29-pointerevents-minutes.html#item02.

    JR: I think that's fine

    … I raised this issue and if it takes some more time that's
    fine

    … I dont think it will require changes to PE spec

    … but perhaps some spec in HTML and/or WebApps

    <scribe> ACTION: Rick reply to the "Making click/contextmenu
    use PointerEvent interface" thread [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Reply to the "Making
    click/contextmenu use PointerEvent interface" thread [on Rick
    Byers - due 2013-02-12].

Mapping for devices that don't support hover and CSS :hover; bug
20222

    AB: the hover issue is documented in bug 20222
    [18]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20222 and
    Rick started a related thread
    [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0041.html.
    ... an issue is whether or not the current text regarding hover
    is overly restrictive (given hover's  usage `in the wild`). And
    there is also an issue about making sure v1 doesn't preclude us
    from doing

      [18] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20222
      [19] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0041.html.

    … something about this in v2

    AB: we postponed this topic last week because Rick was not
    present. He followed up yesterday
    [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0067.html and then Jacob replied.
    ... it appears the way forward is: a) to leave text as is for
    v1; and b) to add hover to the list of potential features for
    v2.

      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0067.html

    JR: I stated the right approach on the list

    … think some experimentation is still needed here

    … want a general solution

    … Rick and I agree this is a tough problem to solve generally

    … and that doing something in v2 may be the right thing to do

    <mbrubeck> I also support punting any changes to v2.

    MB: I support leaving current text as is and potentially doing
    something in v2

    SG: agree

    DS: fine with that but it should be called out because it is an
    Accessiblity issue

    JR: that's fair

    … I can add a related note

    … identify the problem but note we don't have a solution

    … Hover has always been an a11y issue

    … It is worth noting PE doesn't fix this issue nor make it
    worse

    AB: so Jacob will add some non-normative text

    … and also close 20222

    … is that correct?

    JR: yes

    <scribe> ACTION: Jacob close bug 20222 per the 5-Feb-2013
    resolution [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-19 - Close bug 20222 per the
    5-Feb-2013 resolution [on Jacob Rossi - due 2013-02-12].

    <scribe> ACTION: Jacob add some non-normative text for 20222
    [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-20 - Add some non-normative text for
    20222 [on Jacob Rossi - due 2013-02-12].

Transformed Pointer Coordinates?

    AB: Doug Schepers  started the conversation via
    [23]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0046.html. Based on that discussion, Jacob opened a
    bug for the CSSOM View
    [24]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20832 spec.
    ... it appears there is nothing we need to do for the PE spec.
    Is that correct?

      [23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0046.html.
      [24] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20832

    DS: yes, that's correct

    … the result is that people have some ideas

    … they agree it is not a PE issue but an issue for CSSOM spec

    RESOLUTION: the "Transformed Pointer Coordinates" issue will be
    addressed in other specs (not the Pointer Events spec)

PE spec comments by Cathy

    AB: Cathy asked some question about the PE spec
    [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0057.html
    ... Jacob replied yesterday
    [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0072.html. He suggests two comments are mostly
    editorial and he added two new bugs:
    ... 1.  "PREVENT MOUSE EVENT flag should be per pointer type"
    [27]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20872
    ... 2.  "Pointercancel should also implicitly release capture"
    [28]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20873

      [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0057.html
      [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0072.html.
      [27] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20872
      [28] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20873

    JR: this was good feedback

    … I can walk through them

    … #1 how many pointers can be the primary pointer at once

    … there can in theory be many devices

    … but in reality, don't see many devices used at once

    … End up having mouse events fighting each other

    … We considered device arbitration

    … but we didn't go that route

    DS: if a game has a tablet and 2 people and each person has an
    input device - does this work?

    JR: absolutely

    … primary gives UA a rule for multitouch to determine which
    device wins

    DS: do you have some code to demonstrate this? If yes, that
    would be great to show during W3Conf

    JR: ok; I can look into that
    ... if anyone has feedback on other scenarios like that, please
    send email
    ... ok, Cathy's comment #2

    … the spec will need to be changed

    … it's a simple change

    … filed bug 20872

    … [29]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20872

      [29] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20872

    … I proposed changes in
    [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0072.html

      [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0072.html

    <Cathy> Looks fine to me.

    AB: any comments re Jacob's proposal for #2?

    JR: re Cathy's comment #3 ...

    … agree the text is a bit convoluted

    … I can clarify this text

    … I didn't open up a bug because the fix is relatively easy

    JR: re Cathy's comment #4

    … there is a scenario missing from the spec

    … for pointer cancel

    … I opened bug 20873 for that
    [31]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=208723

      [31] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=208723

    … will make a simple text change to fix this

    AB: sounds good to me

    <asir> Correct link is
    [32]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20873

      [32] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20873

    CC: yes, that's good

Pointer events – active buttons state & pen devices

    AB: Tim Bannister asked about how PEs work with pen devices and
    buttons
    [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0052.html
    ... Jacob replied yesterday
    [34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0069.html.
    ... it appears this was mostly a request for clarification and
    that no spec change is needed. Is that correct?

      [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0052.html
      [34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0069.html.

    JR: yes

    … I haven't seen the behaviour Tim described

    … the button is just a modifier

    AB: any comments?

    … ok, then we consider that resolved

Pointer Events Open Bugs

    AB: the only open bug [35]http://tinyurl.com/Bugs-PointerEvents
    we haven't talked about is 20109 that Jacob reopened yesterday
    [36]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20109
    ... Jacob's comment
    [37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0073.html

      [35] http://tinyurl.com/Bugs-PointerEvents
      [36] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20109
      [37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0073.html

    JR: this is the mouse emulating pressure bug

    … we realize that in most pen apps, for max pressure for the
    pen correlates to greather than normal stroke width

    … half-pressure would be "normal" pressure

    … if use something like Msft Paint, a line is .5 pressure

    … We changed the spec about a month ago

    … changed from .5 to 1

    … Need to think about other properties e.g. tiltX, tiltY,
    width, height

    … Can leave it up to impls to decide

    … If we emulate one prop, we should emulate the other
    properties too

    … We are proposing : mouse should be .5 rather 1 for pressue

    … spec now use MAY for width and height and we think it should
    be SHOULD

    MB: if max should be twice default pressure but in Msft doc
    it's 1.5 times

    JR: the documentation is correct, I made an error in my e-mail

    MB: ok, thanks

    … I agree with the proposal to change this to SHOULD

    … we need consistency with the defaults

    … otherwise, get interop problems

    … so having consistent defaults is a good idea

    AB: any other comments

    <mbrubeck> Rationale: If developers test only in browsers with
    a default value, they might not realize their program has a
    divide-by-zero bug or other bugs, in browsers without a nonzero
    default.

    AB: so do we ask Jacob to change this now?

    JR: I can make the change and then ask Rick and Olli if they
    have any concerns

    <scribe> ACTION: Jacob apply your proposed change to bug 20109
    and ask the group for comments [recorded in
    [38]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Apply your proposed change to
    bug 20109 and ask the group for comments [on Jacob Rossi - due
    2013-02-12].

    <asir> [39]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20217

      [39] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20217

    AB: anything else on the spec before AoB

    JR: re touch-action

    <asir> You can find Rick's response
    [40]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0067.html

      [40] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0067.html

    … Rick replied and was OK with the proposal

Any other Business

    AB: re LC, it appears we have 3 open bugs (20109, 20872 and
    20873). If we still want to get a LC published on Feb 19, we
    should be in a position to discuss this transition during our
    Feb 12 call. That means we need proposed fixes for these bugs
    `real soon now`.
    ... I think we are in pretty good shape

    AV: we are still waiting for Rick's input on the context menu
    issue

    AB: oh yes, good point

    DS: can someone make sure Rick knows that?

    AB: I already have an action to contact Rick

    DS: would be good to get the bugs fixed as soon as we can

    JR: yes, I'm on it

    AB: if you have any comments regarding the IndieUI: Events 1.0
    FPWD
    [41]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    013JanMar/0059.html, please send them to
    public-indie-ui-comments @ w3.org.
    ... and news regarding implementations?

      [41] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2013JanMar/0059.html

    AV: call next week?

    AB: yes, to record consensus to publish LC

    DS: re W3Conf ...

    … if people have implementation info we can share, that would
    be good

    … would be good if JQuery would create a blog about their plans
    related to Pointer Events

    … then Jacob could mention that during his presentation

    … it would send a good message

    SG: yes, I'll talk to others in jQuery

    DS: are there any especially cool demos that Jacob could
    potentially use during his preso?

    JR: yes, proposals welcome [and slides ;-)]

    DS: think a two-player game would be nice

    <mbrubeck> Air hockey, e.g.

    JR: we worked with Atari on some games like pong and those
    games use pointer events

    AV: what about a call on Feb 19?

    AB: yes, that's fine with me
    ... so we will have a call next week if there is something to
    discuss other than a CfC to publish LC

    … if LC is the only topic, I will use email and a short review
    period - like 1 or 2 days

    AB: meeting adjourned

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Jacob add some non-normative text for 20222
    [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion03]
    [NEW] ACTION: Jacob apply your proposed change to bug 20109 and
    ask the group for comments [recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Jacob close bug 20222 per the 5-Feb-2013
    resolution [recorded in
    [44]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion02]
    [NEW] ACTION: Rick reply to the "Making click/contextmenu use
    PointerEvent interface" thread [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2013/02/05-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion01]

    [End of minutes]

Received on Tuesday, 5 February 2013 17:09:14 UTC