- From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 12:15:01 -0500
- To: "public-pointer-events@w3.org" <public-pointer-events@w3.org>
The draft minutes from the December 18 voice conference are available at
<http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html> and copied below.
WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send
them to the public-pointer-events mail list before 8 January 2013 - the
date of the next call. In the absence of any changes, these minutes will
be considered approved.
Thanks to Rick for Scribing this meeting.
-ArtB
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Pointer Events WG Voice Conference
18 Dec 2012
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0109.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-irc
Attendees
Present
Art_Barstow, Rick_Byers, Jacob_Rossi, Asir_Vedamuthu,
Olli_Pettay, Doug_Schepers, Cathy_Chan
Regrets
Chair
Art
Scribe
Art, Rick
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Getting started
2. [6]pointer events bugs
3. [7]Bug 20107 - eraser button for penb
4. [8]Bug 20221 - mechanism for creating PointerEvent
instances
5. [9]Bug 20219 - Making pointerType a string
6. [10]hardware timestamps - bug 20220
7. [11]Bug 20236 - Is button value -1 impossible?
8. [12]bug 20218 - Extent pointer events to support raw
trackpad data
9. [13]Bug 20133 - clarify touchAction applies only to
pointerDown
10. [14]AoB
* [15]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<ArtB> Scribe: Art
<ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
Date: 18 December 2012
<smaug> mbrubeck: ping
Getting started
AB: need a scribe (cheat sheet
<[16]http://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/Meetings#Meeting_Scri
bes>)
[16] http://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/Meetings#Meeting_Scribes%3E)
Scribe+ Rick
<scribe> ScribeNick: rbyers
<smaug> ++rbyers
<ArtB> AB: draft agenda posted yesterday
[17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
012OctDec/0077.html. Any change requests?
[17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0077.html.
pointer events bugs
<ArtB>
[18]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=PointerE
ventsWG&component=Pointer%20Events%20specification&resolution=-
--&list_id=2680
[18] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=PointerEventsWG&component=Pointer%20Events%20specification&resolution=---&list_id=2680
<jrossi2>
[19]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20107
[19] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20107
Bug 20107 - eraser button for penb
Jacob: Asir sent out proposal for actual value to use
<jrossi2>
[20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
012OctDec/0113.html
[20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0113.html
Jacob: just use the next button value
... USB spec does call it the eraser button, probably makes
sense to re-use that term here
... Any objections?
RESOLUTION: Add button value named 'eraser'
<jrossi2>
[21]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20221
[21] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20221
<ArtB> —> per Asir's proposal in
[22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
012OctDec/0113.html
[22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0113.html
Bug 20221 - mechanism for creating PointerEvent instances
Jacob: just gap in original proposal - thought dictionary was
actually there
<jrossi2>
[23]http://html5labs.interoperabilitybridges.com/dom4events/#co
nstructors
[23] http://html5labs.interoperabilitybridges.com/dom4events/#constructors
Jacob: pattern originates in DOM4, above example suggests how
to do it for events
... but not yet an actual deliverable
... so can't define dictionary for pointer events that inherits
from dictionary for mouse events
<jrossi2>
[24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
012OctDec/0117.html
[24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0117.html
Jacob: But we could completely define the dictionary now, and
inherit in the future to collapse into one?
Art: Believe current charter of webapps includes DOM4 events,
and there is an editors draft
... but no first public working draft yet
Jacob: concern is creating normative dependency on that
<ArtB> D4Events ED: [25]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/
[25] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/
Art: OK with dependency on DOM3 events for now
Jacob: if there is no functional difference then we can update
our spec in errata
Olli: order of properties may be an issue
Jacob: I put them in order for inheritance chain
... but I can check the details. Probably just a matter of
making sure that the order we specify in PE spec, matches how
they'd come out via inheritance
Olli: doesn't matter what order they are in in the spec, what
matters is how the implementation orders them
Jacob: OK, I can check that
<ArtB> -> D4E Editor's Draft:
[26]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm
[26] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm
Jacob: don't think D4 spec specifies this
Olli: It's in the WebIDL spec
... inheritance may inmply a different order
<scribe> ACTION: jrossi Determine if WebIDL permits us to
define our dictionary in a way compatibile with future
inheritance from DOM4 mouse event dictionary [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Determine if WebIDL permits us
to define our dictionary in a way compatibile with future
inheritance from DOM4 mouse event dictionary [on Jacob Rossi -
due 2012-12-25].
Jacob: If we did define in relation to DOM4 events, what is the
process?
Art: Ideally we'd be at least one stage behind in maturity
level. Eg. could prevent us from going to REC status until DOM4
events is CR
<smaug> "The order of the dictionary members on a given
dictionary is such that inherited dictionary members are
ordered before non-inherited members, and the dictionary
members on the one dictionary definition (including any partial
dictionary definitions) are ordered lexicographically by the
Unicode codepoints that comprise their identifiers. "
Doug: if you have a normative dependency you're not supposed to
move forward, but W3C is examining this. I think we're
relatively safe here. We could wait until last call to see if
we have an issue.
... there are options, will only bite us post-CR
<smaug>
[28]http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#idl-dictionaries
[28] http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#idl-dictionaries
Jacob: OK, thanks. If there's no issue I'd still prefer not to
take a dependency
Olli: I think there is an issue
Jacob: OK, so we may just have to take the dependency and worry
about it later
RESOLUTION: Will add dictionary for event creation. This will
add a dependency on DOM4 events, pending confirmation that
there is a functional difference between inheritance and
flattened dictionaries.
<jrossi2>
[29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
012OctDec/0114.html
[29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html
Bug 20219 - Making pointerType a string
Jacob: change made in spec with table of normative values
... put in suggested text:
<jrossi2> "If a user agent supports pointer device types other
than those listed above, the value of pointerType SHOULD be
vendor prefixed to avoid conflicting names for different types
of devices. Future specifications MAY provide additional
normative values for other device types."
""If a user agent supports pointer device types other than
those listed above, the value of pointerType SHOULD be vendor
prefixed to avoid conflicting names for different types of
devices. Future specifications MAY provide additional normative
values for other device types."
Jacob: any concerns over 'SHOULD' here?
Art: this could be an informative note, but this is fine too
Any objections to proposed text in
[30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
012OctDec/0114.html?
[30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html?
None
<ArtB> ACTION: jacob implement the proposal for bug 20219 as
proposed in
[31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
012OctDec/0114.html [recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion02]
[31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html
<trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Implement the proposal for bug
20219 as proposed in
[33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
012OctDec/0114.html [on Jacob Rossi - due 2012-12-25].
[33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html
RESOLUTION: Incorporate text from email 0114.html into spec -
custom pointerTypes SHOULD be vendor prefixed
<jrossi2>
[34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
012OctDec/0118.html
[34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0118.html
hardware timestamps - bug 20220
[35]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20220
[35] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20220
<jrossi2>
[36]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/HighResolu
tionTime/Overview.html
[36] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/HighResolutionTime/Overview.html
Jacob: specifies a timestamp in milliseconds with accuracy up
to 1/1000th of an ms
... type change makes perfect sense
... discussion about whether all DOM events should add such an
timestamp
... fine as long as defined as defined as hardware time instead
of dispatch time
Rick: that was definiately the intention (flackr started this
work for touch performance - exactly the scenario envisioned by
the current PE spec text)
Jacob: Ok, sounds good
Propose removing hwTimestamp from this spec, but we'd come back
if there was an issue getting it added to DOM4 events
No objections
RESOLUTION: remove hwTimestamp from PE spec (under expectation
it will get added to all DOM events)
<jrossi2>
[37]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20236
[37] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20236
Bug 20236 - Is button value -1 impossible?
Jacob: Olli pointed out that button is technically unsigned, so
-1 is invalid
... Don't want to churn DOM3 spec
... Doesn't seem to be an interop problem in practice for this
to be -1
... So propose that PE change the definition to signed
Olli: Would prefer to change DOM3 event here
... but do we really need a negative value?
<jrossi2>
[38]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEve
nts.html#chorded-button-interactions
[38] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#chorded-button-interactions
Jacob: idea is to optimize for least common denominator
... want to be able to write for mouse and have it work with
touch
... mouse behaves as a contact, subsequent up/down just alter
the button state
... but DOM3 says that button is only valid on mousedown
... so use -1 as a sentinal value
... alternately could have a 'button state change' event
Olli: worried about libraries seeing a change in behavior on
button
Jacob: don't think -1 should cause any interop problem
correction. Jacob: don't think changing unsigned to signed for
MouseEvent would have any impact on library
scribe: only way to test is creating synthetic event with
negative value, but no interop here
... we're not actually ever going to have a negative value for
MouseEvent, only PointerEvent - so can't break libraries that
way
Olli: it just seems ugly to redefine a property here
Jacob: What if we changed DOM3 events instead?
Olli: That would be cleaner
<scribe> ACTION: jrossi Ask DOM3 editor whether button could be
changed from unsigned to signed without resetting last call.
[recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-12 - Ask DOM3 editor whether button
could be changed from unsigned to signed without resetting last
call. [on Jacob Rossi - due 2012-12-25].
Jacob: Could make an argument that it's safe, but worried about
it
... If it would be a big problem for DOM3 events then we'll
bring up changing it in PointerEvents again here
<jrossi2>
[40]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20218
[40] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20218
bug 20218 - Extent pointer events to support raw trackpad data
Rick: idea is that in the future web apps might want to get raw
touch data from trackpads (eg. for defining it's own gestures)
Jacob: we actually considered this in the origina PE design.
Currently no standard (non-driver-specific) way to do this on
Windows, but that could change.
Rick: MacOS permits readings raw trackpad touch data
Jacob: not just about trackpads on laptops, but also other
hardware like large Wacom touchpads - 'indirect touch'
... We thought about it in IE10, but have no plans to do it
anytime soon
... May be a good thing for PointerEvents 2
Proposal: create wishlist for v2 features, and add this one
no objections
<jrossi2>
[41]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20311
[41] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20311
RESOLUTION: Mark trackpad bug 20218 as resolved Later for PE v2
<jrossi2>
[42]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEve
nts.html#the-touch-action-css-property
[42] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#the-touch-action-css-property
Bug 20133 - clarify touchAction applies only to pointerDown
Jacob: this is really already covered by the spec
... but is a good idea to make a tweak to make it more clear
... would prefer to do it at the same time as other touchAction
changes in discussion on list
All agreed
ArtB: yes, we're both on Chrome (different office though)
AoB
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: Next call will be Jan 8, 2013
<asir_> Happy Holidays!!
Doug: please use the mailing list for discussion until our next
meeting
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: jacob implement the proposal for bug 20219 as
proposed in
[43]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
012OctDec/0114.html [recorded in
[44]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion02]
[NEW] ACTION: jrossi Ask DOM3 editor whether button could be
changed from unsigned to signed without resetting last call.
[recorded in
[45]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion03]
[NEW] ACTION: jrossi Determine if WebIDL permits us to define
our dictionary in a way compatibile with future inheritance
from DOM4 mouse event dictionary [recorded in
[46]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
ion01]
[43] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 18 December 2012 17:15:33 UTC