Re: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect

On Wed, 16 Sep 2015 21:17:55 +0200, Bryan Garaventa  
<bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:

>
> I understand the need for a native drag and drop solution, and I’ve read  
> the spec starting at
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html51/editing.html#dnd
>
>
> Where it states:
>
>
> “When using an input modality other than a pointing device, users would  
> probably have to   explicitly indicate their intention to perform a  
> drag-and-drop >operation, stating what they wish   to drag and where  
> they wish to drop it, respectively.”

This introduction is just badly written...

>
>
> So this brings up a couple of questions for me.
>
>
> 1.       How does this translate to the Accessibility Tree, where the  
> state of such element interactions can be interfaced properly by ATs?

The accessibility tree should be built from HTML, where that is what is  
there. It makes much more sense to use the same attributes as the rest of  
HTML (and presumably other languages like SVG that decide to implement the  
API and markup for drag and drop) than it does to have a  
"separate-but-equal" set...

>
> 2.       Doesn’t this need sound remarkably similar to what aria-grabbed  
> and aria-dropeffect actually do in the Accessibility Tree?

Yes. But what ARIA doesn't do is *work*. Unlike HTML, which allows authors  
to make things draggable and droppable, you have to do *everything*  
yourself as an author.

In addition to having to make drag and drop work in HTML anyway, unless  
you have a very odd approach to development.

That path seems like a perfect recipe for failure.

>
> I would understand deprecating and removing these attributes if the  
> native drag and drop interaction somehow was conveyed directly in the  
> Accessibility >Tree as described here, but the HTML5.1 spec appears to  
> be saying this is up to the author, and what option will an author have  
> to do this if these attributes >are removed? The ‘selection’ model by  
> itself isn’t sufficient to meet this need.

No, the accessibility tree needs to pick up the native behaviour, and I  
don't see where in the spec it suggests that it is the author's  
responsibility. Whereas ARIA explicitly requires authors to reimplement  
the mechanism for themselves.

cheers

>
>
>
>
> From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]Sent: Wednesday,  
> September 16, 2015 10:44 AM
> To: James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
> Cc: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>; Joanmarie Diggs  
> <jdiggs@igalia.com>; lwatson@paciellogroup.com; WAI Protocols & >Formats  
> <public-pfwg@w3.org>
> Subject: Re: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect
>
>
> I am not convinced that HTML has enough there yet although I agree that  
> a native solution would be far better and it needs to encompass SVG as  
> well.
> I think some strongly worded text, on the order of: "This ARIA feature  
> is planned for removal in a future release when more robust alternatives  
> are made available."
>
> We have to make sure we have this alternative solution. When we pushed  
> for the JavaScript and CSS restriction to be removed in WCAG 2.0 from  
> WCAG 1 we had to prove >that we could produce something that worked. I  
> think that is only fair to end users.
> Rich
>
>> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>
> James Craig ---09/15/2015 06:03:18 PM---On Sep 15, 2015, at 1:02 PM,  
> Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote: > We cannot bank on on
>
> From: James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> Cc: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>, Joanmarie Diggs  
> <jdiggs@igalia.com>, "lwatson@paciellogroup.com"  
> <lwatson@paciellogroup.com>, WAI Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org>
> Date: 09/15/2015 06:03 PM
> Subject: Re: ARIA 1.1: Deprecate @aria-grabbed and @aria-dropeffect
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 15, 2015, at 1:02 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> We cannot bank on one Widget library doing this. jQueryUI only has 4%  
>> market share: http://www.perfectleads.com/>marketshare/angular-js
>>There is strong indication that its use is dropping.
>
> jQuery was just an example because Bryan mentioned it. My comment was:
>
>>> jQuery *and other well-maintained libraries* update to include the  
>>> most performant native HTML features when they become >available.
>
> Certainly the fact that there are ~1000 JavaScript frameworks on the Web  
> is evidence that a native implementation is more >desirable than putting  
> the onus on the framework developers.
>
> I think there may be enough in the HTML 5.1 spec to make native HTML  
> drag&drag accessible. I know that there is not enough in >the ARIA spec  
> to make drag&drop accessible on all platforms. We could let it limp  
> along, or we could deprecate it. I think >the responsible decision is to  
> deprecate it and focus on the good parts of ARIA.
>
> James
>
>



-- 
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
chaals@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at http://yandex.com