Re: Agenda: August 27, 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Caucus (Correction I am still chairing this week)

What I am saying is that it is possible for an author to give a rowgroup
focus. On Windows platforms the "group" role is now generic. This is how IE
mapped Divs for years.

For Linux this ended up becoming a panel.

I looked at the HTML mapping spec:
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html


... and <div> maps to role "group" by default which would lead me to be
this is generic. Also listitem maps to group:
http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-listitem


Also, on Mac the "group" role maps to group:

http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-group


This would lead me to believe that rowgroup could also be a generic
focusable element. Currently, tfoot, tbody, and theader, also seldom used,
all default to rowgroup which would be like a div or a group.

So, if a div maps to a role group and divs are generic (per HTML
accessibility API mapping spec.), and the group role maps to the same group
role on Macs I don't understand why what we are proposing is wrong.

You are already exposing divs as group roles the same as role="group" so
where is the big engineering exercise you are pointing to?


Rich


Rich Schwerdtfeger



From: James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
Cc: Joseph Scheuhammer <clown@alum.mit.edu>, PF
            <public-pfwg@w3.org>
Date: 09/08/2015 09:13 PM
Subject: Re: Agenda: August 27, 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Caucus (Correction I am
            still chairing this week)



Rich wrote:


      Asking the group to waste cycles finding a real world example where
      this element is used is a waste of people's time for something we
      just want to protect the user against in case it happens.


It seems like a waste of time to ask an engineering team to make an
explicit change to a rendering when, as you say, "There was NO real world
need for it…"


      The right thing would be to NOT have rowgroup receive a tabindex at
      all but the browser vendors decided differently. There was NO real
      world need for it to receive tabindex.


I think the right fallback behavior is for a focusable thead/tfoot/tbody to
be exposed as a generic focusable element, which would invalidate the
containing table's semantic role.

…unless there is a valid need to focus a rowgroup. It seems like you're
saying there is no need.

More importantly, the "group" role is not identical to the generic role.
Otherwise there would be no difference between <div> and <div
role="group">... This is not a cleanup exercise. Changing all generic
elements to be exposed as groups would have very broad and undesirable
effects.

James



      On Sep 8, 2015, at 4:58 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
      wrote:



      James,

      What the group is trying to do is deliver consistency across
      browsers. All the other browsers, except Safari, are consistent. This
      is a cleanup exercise.

      Do we see a lot of use of this? No.

      However, the fact that the HTML working group decided to make every
      element accept a tabindex and rowgroup can receive focus we had to
      address the gap in the browsers.

      Do we think this will happen a lot? No.

      There needs to be some degree of predictability in the browser
      implementation. Should, for whatever reason, an author put tabindex
      on this useless element the user will receive a very confusing user
      experience that only impacts the user of the assistive technology as
      the user who is not impaired will see physical showed in the UI
      around the rowgroup.

      Asking the group to waste cycles finding a real world example where
      this element is used is a waste of people's time for something we
      just want to protect the user against in case it happens. The right
      thing would be to NOT have rowgroup receive a tabindex at all but the
      browser vendors decided differently. There was NO real world need for
      it to receive tabindex.

      Rich


      Rich Schwerdtfeger

      Inactive hide details for James Craig ---08/31/2015 03:39:43 PM---Is
      there a real-world use case that does this? It seems like James Craig
      ---08/31/2015 03:39:43 PM---Is there a real-world use case that does
      this? It seems like a pretty complicated example to discuss

      From: James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
      To: Joseph Scheuhammer <clown@alum.mit.edu>
      Cc: PF <public-pfwg@w3.org>
      Date: 08/31/2015 03:39 PM
      Subject: Re: Agenda: August 27, 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Caucus (Correction I
      am still chairing this week)





      Is there a real-world use case that does this? It seems like a pretty
      complicated example to discuss as a theoretical problem.

      For example, what's the real-world need to focus a row group?

      James


      > On Aug 26, 2015, at 9:02 AM, Joseph Scheuhammer <clown@alum.mit.edu
      > wrote:
      >
      > Hi James,
      >
      > On 2015-08-25 12:40 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
      >>
      >> *Agenda: August 27, 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Caucus*
      >> ...
      >>
      >>    6. Action 1578 Discuss Issue 700 with the Working group (Should
      >>    rowgroup, tbody, and thead have any role mapping in AAPIs?
      should
      >>    there be an accessible object?
      >>    or, should it be a generic object? (Rich)
      >>      o I believe we discussed this and we made the "group" role
      the
      >>        generic role. This would be consistent with IE and Safari
      >>        mappings. Shouldn't this be closed?
      >>      o _https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700_

      >>      o _https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1578_

      >>
      >
      >
      > Rich notes above, "I believe we discussed this and we made the
      'group' role the generic role".  I can confirm that the AAPI group
      decided to change the mappings for role="rowgroup" to a generic
      group-like role for the various platforms [1].  The reason is that
      authors can create a grid with rowgroup elements that are focusable
      and interactive (e.g., respond to clicks) [2].
      >
      > However, the statement, "This would be consistent with IE and
      Safari mappings" is not correct with respect to Safari.  The current
      AXAPI mapping for rowgroup is "Not mapped".  There is a webkit bug in
      this regard [3].  What is the current thinking regarding AXAPI's
      mapping of the rowgroup role?
      >
      > Thanks.
      >
      > [1]
      http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup

      > [2] http://clown.idrc.ocad.ca/Fluid/aria/FocusableRowGroup.html

      > [3] https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146239

      >
      > --
      > ;;;;joseph.
      >
      > 'Array(16).join("wat" - 1) + " Batman!"'
      >           - G. Bernhardt -
      >