Re: Issue-742: Proposal aria-destination

On Thu, 15 Oct 2015 22:12:46 +0200, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>  
wrote:

>
> Hi Rich,
>
>
> You’ve noted that the values may have to be mapped to the accessibility  
> APIs. As what?
>
> Again, if aria-destination is what we are looking at, it strikes me that  
> what you are after is a better (accessible) description of where the  
> link goes to, so that >it is more 'useful' to screen readers (as after  
> all, the functionality is already clear - it's a link).
>
> We can do that today with existing ARIA constructs, and it is an  
> authoring issue rather than a mapping/new functionality issue:
>
>        Terms and Conditions<a href="#footnote" aria-label="Footnote:  
> 1"><sup>[1]</sup></a>
>
>
> What am I missing?
That the COGA people are explicitly asking for machine-readable terms to  
do automated processing. (As I believe DPub are doing).


>
> From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com]The meta data @rel  
> is important because we would need to define a strategy to map it to AT  
> if necessary.

Agreed. THe key here is "if ncessary". You only need to care about rel  
values relevant to accessibility - and we can (and IMHO should) write a  
spec that singles those out and suggests appropriate implementation  
patterns.


>
> ... regarding the Web being ugly that does not mean we need to make it  
> more ugly. We discussed the @rel attribute on the ARIA call and there  
> are a lot of concerns about it >being a kitchen sink of meta data  
> related to the prior sentence. That may be where the group goes but that  
> is still to be determined.

OK. Part of the issue I see is that there is a pretty nasty architectural  
ugliness in having two different ways fo doing the same thing - one of  
which is for "accessibility" and one of which is for "everyone else".

Anyway, I am hoping to discuss it at TPAC - in part because I think there  
are some clear lessons for HTML about some things that need to be  
tweaked...

cheers

>
>
>
> Rich
>
>
>> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>
> "Chaals McCathie Nevile" ---10/13/2015 07:07:39 PM---On Wed, 14 Oct 2015  
> 00:23:07 +0200, Richard Schwerdtfeger   <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> From: "Chaals McCathie Nevile" <chaals@yandex-team.ru>
> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> Cc: PF <public-pfwg@w3.org>
> Date: 10/13/2015 07:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Issue-742: Proposal aria-destination
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 14 Oct 2015 00:23:07 +0200, Richard Schwerdtfeger  
> <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> @rel is not in SVG.
> Nor is aria-destination.
> rel="start" is innocuous
>> Who came up with this meta data in rel. A lot of it is dreadful.
>
> So what? A lot of the stuff that is fundamental to the Web is dreadful.  
> If you only have to look at the things that are relevant to your use  
> case, it is easy to describe the list of things you care about, get  
> implementation >of those, and leave the rest to whatever audience and  
> fate it gets.
>
> That seems a lot easier than trying to convince the people who are  
> already doing that, in cases that are relevant to DPub and cognitive  
> accessibility, that they should suddenly rebuild their entire toolchain,  
> and >replace all the content they use, to satisffy people who haven't  
> started implementing anything in production yet.
>
> cheers
>
> Chaals
>
>
>
>> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>
> "Chaals McCathie Nevile" ---10/13/2015 06:15:00 AM---On Mon, 12 Oct 2015  
> 23:39:34 +0200, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
>> From: "Chaals McCathie Nevile" <chaals@yandex-team.ru>
> To: PF <public-pfwg@w3.org>, Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> Date: 10/13/2015 06:15 AM
> Subject: Re: Issue-742: Proposal aria-destination
>
>
>
>>
>> On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:39:34 +0200, Richard Schwerdtfeger
> <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
>> This is not a formal proposal but one that would seed a formal proposal  
>> if the group agrees. I would need to coordinate with coga and the  
>> aria-dpub folks. Normally I would push this to ARIA 2.0 but because we  
>> have two efforts wanting essentially the same thing and I don't want to  
>> have multiple roles for a link I believe this is a better approach.
>>
>> aria-destination - Provides the context of a link.
>>
>> This attribute provides contextual semantics for the destination of a  
>> link so that authors may use this information to drive a consistent  
>> user interface. Some assistive technologies may this information  
>> important to provide to assistive technologies.
>>
>> The following is a list of possible values that the destination could  
>> take on from the coga task force and I suggest we consider a subset of  
>> these:
>
>> * home
>
> Does this mean a home page? If so, it is covered by the existing
> rel="start" which is already in HTML 4 [1] and in HTML5 through being
> listed in the microformats wiki [2]. The proposed rel="home" [3] seems to
> be a synonym.
>
>> * sign in
>> * sign up
>
> These values should be proposed for rel. The HTML specifications have
> traditionally suggested the address element for these, but it is
> insufficiently clear what the content means.
>
>> * site map
>
> This is covered by the proposal for rel="sitemap" [4] to be included in
> HTML5.
>
>> * help
>
> This is already part of HTML5 [5] as rel="help"
>
>> * terms
>
> Does this mean license, which is already in HTML5 [6], or something else?
>
>> * comment
>> * language (English)
>> * post
>> * social (provide label - such as facebook twitter)
>> * tools
>
> Can you explain what these are meant to do, or provide a pointer to  
> where they are described or discussed in more detail? It is pretty hard  
> from the standalone page linked to understand
>
>> * about us
>> * contact us
>> * our email
>> * our phone
>> * product
>> * services
>
> These things are already covered by the widely used schema.org,  
> *currently* used on millions of domains. It makes more sense to read  
> that existing markup than to try and build a parallel version
>
>
>> This is based on this wiki:  
>> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/issue-papers/links-buttons.html
>>
>> I introduce this now as the dpub aria task force roles for different  
>> types of links which reflect the destination of the link provided.  
>> Since both task forces need a feature like this we should place an  
>> anchor inside ARIA 1.1 so that they mau build off it.
>
> Instead of doing that, I suggest putting this in HTML itself, except for  
> the cases where schema.org seems to have a significant mind-share and  
> deployment already.
>
>> The current Digital Publishing WAI-ARIA module  
>> (http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html) has these roles:
>>
>>
>> doc-biblioref: A reference to a bibliography entry.
>> doc-glossref: A reference to a glossary definition
>
> Both of these are readily covered - glossary by the existing rel value,  
> biblioref by retrieving the proposal that wasn't accepted for HTML 4.
>
>> doc-location: A link that allows the user to jump to a related location  
>> in the content (e.g., from a footnote to its reference, from an index  
>> entry to where the topic is discussed, or from a glossary definition to  
>> where the term is used).
>
> The footnote use case can easily be covered with the existing rel="prev"  
> / rel="previous".
>
> For an index entry this makes less sense, as it is very common that  
> there will be multiple places a term appears.
>
> An alternative approach would be to use the rev attribute for this case,  
> as this seems to be a pretty sound use case.
>
>> doc-noteref: A reference to a footnote, typically appearing as a  
>> superscripted number or symbol in the main body of text.
>
> This can readily be covered by retrieving the proposed rel="footnote".
>
>> I recommend these be additional tokenized values, without the doc-, for  
>> aria-destination and a subset of what coga would like for ARIA 1.1. The  
>> Coga task force can then expand on the values.
>>
>>
>> example:
>>
>> style {
>>
>> a[a[aria-destination="glossref"] {
>
> *[rel=glossary] {
>
> Also covers the case where you have role="link" instead of a real link,  
> and the now mostly legacy case of image maps, instead of using multiple  
> CSS declarations
>
>>    background-color: yellow;
>>
>>    border: 2px blue;
>>
>> }
>> div[role="link"][aria-destination="glossref"] {
>>
>>    background-color: yellow;
>>
>>    border: 2px blue;
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>> <a aria-destination="glossref" href="..." >discombobulated</a>
>
> <a rel="glossary" href="…"
>
> already exists in the wild, but I am not sure how common it is.
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/types.html#h-6.12
> [2]
> http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values#HTML5_link_type_extensions
> [3] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-home
> [4] http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-sitemap
> [5] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#link-type-help
> [6] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#link-type-license
>
> cheers
>
> Chaals
>
> --Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
>  chaals@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
>
>
>
>>
>
>
>> --
> Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
> chaals@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at http://yandex.com



-- 
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
chaals@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at http://yandex.com