Re: proliferation of reference roles in the dpub aria spec.

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 15:31:29 +0200, Richard Schwerdtfeger  
<schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote:

>
> Good point Charles. To my knowledge AT Vendors do not look at @rel.
> The problems I have with it are that many of its values and the fact  
> that it applies to an area.
> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html#dpub-glossref
>
> Here are some useless values, and confusing values, to our audience:
> prefetch, stylesheet, bookmark, license, stylesheet
>
> Why would a cognitively impaired user care that it maps to a stylesheet?
Why would anyone try to present to a cognitively impaired used that  
something maps to a stylesheet? And what is helpful to people with  
cognitive disabilities about "footer", until you actually implement some  
useful behaviour around it?

Browsers already have built-in handling for everyone of rel="stylesheet" -  
they use it to present content in a way that enhances the basic structural  
information with a useful visual style. And different, but equally useful  
handling of prefetch.

Why wouldn't they do something useful with other values of rel, that they  
would do if it were called aria-something?

The only argument I can see for using aria-* is that it forces the issue  
of whether you need to be using an assistive technology for aria to help  
you. But I doubt there is any real value there to outweigh the problems we  
get by shifting everything - including a lot of our hopes for making  
things work better as well as a confusing pile of markup - onto aria.

cheers
>
>
>
> Rich
>
>
>> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>
> "Chaals McCathie Nevile" ---10/09/2015 06:41:58 AM---On Fri, 09 Oct 2015  
> 11:53:16 +0200, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote: > AFAIK (and per[1]),  
> the accep
>
> From: "Chaals McCathie Nevile" <chaals@yandex-team.ru>
> To: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org>
> Cc: "W3C PF - DPUB Joint Task Force" <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>, Richard  
> Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, PF <public-pfwg@w3.org>
> Date: 10/09/2015 06:41 AM
> Subject: Re: proliferation of reference roles in the dpub aria spec.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 11:53:16 +0200, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
>
> AFAIK (and per[1]), the acceptable link type (a.k.a. possible values for  
> @rel) are registered through the microformat wiki page[2]. Do we have  
> enough information on whether this registration mechanism really works  
> well >for implementers? How easy/difficult is it to add new @rel values  
> if so required? Just to take examples from this thread, rel=biblioentry  
> is labelled as "dropped" (ie, not to be used), and rel=glossentry is  
> unregistered. I >must admit I do not know how [3] functions in practice.
>
> I haven't tried it myself, but ti would be worth doing... because if  
> that doesn't work, HTML had better rethink its approach in general, not  
> just for the tiny population of screenreader users who can do something  
> with aria.
>
> And I also do not know how AT's take @rel values into account (if at  
> all).
>
> Like browsers in general: woefully as a rule, with some honourable  
> exceptions like rel="stylesheet".
>
> I do not have any strong opinion, just not clear what the mechanism is  
> in practice…
>
> If we're minting attribute values, it seems immaterial what the  
> attribute is called. But using rel for purpose seems to make more sense  
> than multiplying aria - especially while aria is still regarded by  
> mainstream browsers as >"I connect the aria to the thing in the  
> accessibility API and then it's someone else's problem".
>
> cheers
>
> Ivan
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#linkTypes
> [2] http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
>
>
>
> On 09 Oct 2015, at 10:24 , Chaals McCathie Nevile  
> <chaals@yandex-team.ru> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 02:17:09 +0200, Richard Schwerdtfeger  
> <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> As I said, I have had somewhat of a concern about the numerous  
> definition of roles that are essentially links. The Coga task force  
> wants to introduce and aria->destination attribute for links to create  
> standard destinations users would go to to enable consistent style of  
> the UI for familiarity to the user.
>> See the aria-destination attribute from coga:  
>> https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/master/issue-papers/links-buttons.html
>
>> So for these roles I would prefer to have:
>
>> <div role="link" aria-destination="biblioentry"> as opposed to  
>> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html#dpub-biblioref
>
>> similarly:
>
>> <div role="link" aria-destination="glossentry" as opposed to  
>> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html#dpub-glossref
>
>> This would cause us to start folding in some of the coga features into  
>> ARIA 1.1.
>
>> Feedback? Coga has similar needs.
>
> This is what the rel= attribute is for. Which makes it easier to extend  
> the functionality without needing an assistive tech plugged in to the  
> accessibility API.
>
> cheers
>
>>
>> Rich
>
>
>
>> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>
>
>
>
>> --
> Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
> chaals@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
>
>
>> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3CDigital Publishing Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> --
> Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
> chaals@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
>



-- 
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
chaals@yandex-team.ru - - - Find more at http://yandex.com