- From: Michiel Bijl <michiel@agosto.nl>
- Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2015 20:12:32 +0200
- To: Protocols and Formats Working Group <public-pfwg@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <CB7E9EE0-0518-45CA-BD6D-27569C4FA6A7@agosto.nl>
Today’s minutes can be found in this e-mail and at this url: http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-aria-minutes.html <http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-aria-minutes.html>
—Michiel
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
01 Oct 2015
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-aria-irc
Attendees
Present
fesch, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Bryan_Garaventa,
JamesNurthen, ShaneM, Michiel_Bijl, Matt_King, Francy,
Michael_Cooper
Regrets
Chair
Rich
Scribe
jamesn, matt_King, MichielBijl
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]Grid role?
2. [5]ACTION-1361
3. [6]ARIA 1.1 Action draft and exit criteria
4. [7]new figure role
* [8]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 01 October 2015
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Causus
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[9]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA#Potent
ial_Agenda_items
[9] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Meetings/TPAC2015/ARIA#Potential_Agenda_items
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[10]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/02
62.html
[10] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0262.html
<richardschwerdtfeger> this is the agenda:
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[11]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/02
62.html
[11] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0262.html
<MichaelC> +MichaelC
<jamesn> scribe: jamesn
<mck>
[12]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#grid
[12] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#grid
Grid role?
MK: suggest that people look at the email and reply on the list
rather than taking meeting time
... will take until TPAC to get screen reader vendor feedback
<clown> current master:
[13]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#grid
[13] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#grid
MK: In terms of agenda time I feel it would be better to do
this later
RS: appendcount and prependcount.... do we really need these?
MK: want to get feedback from screen reader vendors as to
whether they can do without them
RS: I'm still not convinced that we really need them
ACTION-1361
ACTION-1361?
<trackbot> ACTION-1361 -- Matthew King to Suggest new text for
the application role -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[14]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
[14] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
ISSUE-740?
<trackbot> ISSUE-740 -- Deprecating gridcell for grids and use
cell -- open
<trackbot> [15]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/740
[15] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/740
MK- want to talk about in the context of ISSUE-633
ISSUE-633?
<trackbot> ISSUE-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only
static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain
interactive typed items -- open
<trackbot> [16]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
[16] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
I think I have addressed this. If you look at the new gridcell
text in the draft i just listed means issue-740 is overcome by
events
MK: what this is saying is that if you "the cell elements of a
grid have role gridcell"
<clown>
[17]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#grid
cell
[17] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mck_issue633/aria/aria.html#gridcell
MK: and if you follow the link to gridcell it says it can be
focussable, editable.... i intended that to be part of the very
first paragraph to make it mroe obvious to people.
... those are the things that are distinctly different about
grids from tables
... rowheader and columnheader raises another issue. Makes
mapping algorithm difficult. Becuase a colheader can either be
a widget or not a widget. It seems to me like we need a header
cell role which maps to a TH
... cells are not focusbale or selectable. THs are a form of a
cell
... if th maps to colheader the supported states and properties
include things that do not apply to a TH
... are we good with that
RS: I think we can do that
MK: the you could potentially have done the same thing for cell
RS: everything can get focus in HTML or SVG
MK: selection is a different thing'
RS: the net is that unless anyone disagrees is that close 740
as overcome by events
... I think we could put text in the docuement to address that
in the context of a table colheader and rowheader are not
selectable
RESOLUTION: close issue-740 to be addressed by issue-633
ACTOON-1361?
<clown> action-1361
<trackbot> action-1361 -- Matthew King to Suggest new text for
the application role -- due 2015-06-11 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[18]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
[18] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1361
MK: push to next week
ARIA 1.1 Action draft and exit criteria
<clown> action-1513
<trackbot> action-1513 -- Michael Cooper to Set up ARIA 1.1
Requirements draft -- due 2015-08-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[19]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1513
[19] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1513
<clown> action-1719
<trackbot> action-1719 -- Michael Cooper to Draft aria 1.1 cr
exit criteria -- due 2015-09-09 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[20]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1719
[20] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1719
MC: exit criteria already on your agenda
... requirements do not need to be discussed at TPAC
... exit criteria - blocking time to work on b4 tpac
RS: move requiremnet due date out
new figure role
<clown> action-1653
<trackbot> action-1653 -- Ann Abbott to Find out what chinese
equivalent to ctrl+a is, to help with internationalisation
guidance in the ARIA APG 1.1 -- due 2015-06-22 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[21]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1653
[21] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1653
??
<clown> action-1633
<trackbot> action-1633 -- Shane McCarron to Work with rich on
updated process for creating new role value taxonomy extensions
-- due 2015-05-14 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[22]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1633
[22] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1633
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[23]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions
[23] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/ARIAExtensions
RS: had a discusssion about extending for dpub stuff
SM: please close it - it is done
RS: dicsussions i had with SteveF - i posted a defn to the list
<clown>
[24]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/00
33.html
[24] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0033.html
RS: in HTML5 there is a figure. the issue we have is when you
have a figcaption this really is a description not a label for
the figure
... but there are times when the label is embedded in the
description
... is some special role for figcaption needed to allow you to
do this
MK: could this be a label in the figcaption?
RS: Steve was asking do we need a figcaption role
... when yu have a figure role it would also have a describedby
to point to the description
Stefan: what is the difference between figcaption and a role of
figcaption
<clown>
[25]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-figcap
tion-element
[25] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-figcaption-element
RS: we could mao that to a figcaption but it is really the
description for the figure which precedes it
MK: we decided not to have cpation for table as we have
aria-labelledby and aria-describedby
Stefan: would still have to connect them using escibedby so
defeats the purpose
... is there an exmaple?
RS: HTML?
Stefan: a code example which is causing the issue
RS: have figure followed by figcaption. trying to address the
mapping under the surface
<clown>
[26]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/00
33.html
[26] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0033.html
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[27]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/01
54.html
[27] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0154.html
figure: A perceivable section of content which supports the
main
document, and should be easily perceivable regardless of its
position in the layout. A figure might contain a graphical
document, an image, or other content such as code snippets or
example text. Authors SHOULD provide a reference to the figure
from the main text, but the figure need not be displayed at the
same location as the referencing element."
A figure MAY have an associate label or caption, or an
associated description.
Assistive technologies SHOULD enable users to quickly navigate
to figures. Mainstream user agents MAY enable users to quickly
navigate to figures.
We differentiate label and descriptions as one being short and
the
other being long. Steve would like for us to have a figcaption
role
but what I think we really need to do is state that Figures
must have
both a visible label and a description. In HTML the description
can
be implied. I would like to discuss this with the group and
also see
whether Steve things that we should require an aria-labelledby
on the
<figure> element or at least an aria-label. I can see where the
implied description could be adequate and we might just want to
have
an aria-label on it.
We need to resolve this before this becomes a formal proposal.
RS: if we have figcaption do we assume it is always a caption?
FE: would a figcaption show up in the list of figures or
something else
RS: they are using it for dual purpose
<richardschwerdtfeger> <figure>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <figcaption>The Stata
Center</figcaption>
<richardschwerdtfeger> <img src="stata.jpg" alt="The Stata
Center Building">
<richardschwerdtfeger> </figure>
RS: I would have thought you would want the label in the list
of figures
<figure>
<img src="bubbles-work.jpeg"
alt="Bubbles, sitting in his office chair, works on his
latest project intently.">
<figcaption> Bubbles at work</figcaption>
</figure>
<clown>
[28]http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-figcap
tion-element
[28] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-figcaption-element
MK: I would have reversed the text in that bubbles example
... what any AT does is up to them
... we don't dictate their UI
FE: if you make a table of contents you want it to be
predictable
MK: we do use TOC in the spec - but we provide the information
- they decide what to do about it
RS: in SVG drawings when you have a figure - you may not have a
description. It would be down in the SVG itself
<mck> scribe: matt_King
<mck> RS: if we are gong to have figure role, we can not
mandate they have a describedby except through authoring
guidelines
<mck> Joseph: In SVG, do you have to title and desc?
FE: text can also be in there so could have aria-labelledby
<mck> Fred: there could be aria-labeledby and a title as well
FE: could also be a title for the graph inside the SVG so could
be an aria-labelled by in the SVG
<mck> Joseph: if using straight SVG and no ARIA, what do you
use?
MK: if using straight SVG then use title
<mck> RS: then use title in svg; it will create label.
FE: if you loaded SVG as a document it will do that
<mck> RS: it is like the name calculation for html
clown: alt is specific to the image element
rs: figcaption - looking at it. I don't know if it affects the
positioning. Usually descriptions would be underneath it
MK: seems like making a decision based on a sample size of 1
... :)
RS: I don't know if it goes at the beginning. All have seen
figures with really big descriptions after them
... the most sommon thing is that figcaptions are descriptions
FE: in a regular document - with a list of figures what do you
see...
<the label>
MK: thinking dpub - see a list of figures, usally figure 1
etc.... about a sentence long. Often those captions are
relatively long - and the figures do not have a concise label
... in a list of figures would see the labels and the
description
<clown>
[29]http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#h-
figure-and-figcaption-elements
[29] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#h-figure-and-figcaption-elements
MK: would rather add a caption role and in the context of
figure is a figcaption and in table it is a table caption
... we could point at the <P> and use aria-describedby and it
would have the effetc but that element doesn't get the caption
role
clown: it remains a paragraph inside the table
... not talking about real html table markup
mk: an opportunity to make the table picture more robust
stefan: what is the benefit to a cpation role?
rs: do we want a cpation role and do we want a label role...
don't want to open up the label can of worms as people will ask
why we dont have it elsewhere
stefan: say you have a figure and link using aria-labelledby
wouldn't it be an AT issue to connect the 2
rs: if you put a label inside a figure then the text would
appear on the screen
MK: if a figure role on the div and have aria-describedby
pointing to a paragraph
... is there no text element in scg
... why not just add a text element and point to it using
aria-describedby
RS: the text appears within the figure
stefan: if the only issue is visibility can just add a hidden
attribute to it
rs: svg put it in the container can have the text within the
svg itself
<clown> <div><h4 id='figcaption">Figure caption text
here</h4><svg> … <somesvgelement
aria-labelledby="figcaption">…</svg></div>
fe: they are not going to put the description inside the svg
MK: we came up with a table sollution which didn't need a
cpation role
... seems a perfect parallel
... if the issue is mapping it doesn't seem like we need it
RS: Steve asked that we have a separate role for figcaptions
... reasoning he gave is that it acts as a label and a
decription
MK: I think a figure that has aria-describedby pointing to
something has a description, shouldn't require a label - if it
has both then a UA can ecide which to use for whatever purpose
it has
... seems like label and description should be good for figures
... it is up to them if they have labels or descriptions or
both
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[30]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/01
54.html
[30] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0154.html
RS: will tell Steve we don't want a seperate caption - if you
have it use describedby
<jnurthen> issue-740?
<trackbot> issue-740 -- Deprecating gridcell for grids and use
cell -- closed
<trackbot> [31]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/740
[31] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/740
<jnurthen> action-1672?
<trackbot> action-1672 -- Michael Cooper to Mark aria-grabbed,
aria-dropeffect as deprecated and provide reference definition
of derprecated -- due 2015-08-16 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[32]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1672
[32] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1672
<jnurthen> MC: I will put on an editors agenda to work out how
it should work
<richardschwerdtfeger> The group agreed that these should be
deprecated. We just need wording that these attributes are
deprecated and that alternative will be sought in later version
of ARIA that takes into account HTML drag and drop
functionality.
<jnurthen> issue-704?
<trackbot> issue-704 -- Should there be an ARIA method to
indicate the primary button? -- open
<trackbot> [33]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/704
[33] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/704
<MichielBijl> +1
<jnurthen> RS: coga people will want this
<clown> +1
<MichielBijl> +2
<jnurthen> rs: going to have an aria function?
<jnurthen> rs: a help button - need to know what the purpose of
a button is
<jnurthen> aria-default="true/false"
<MichielBijl> input type=button/submit
<MichielBijl> role=button?
<clown> but not role=button aria-pressed
<MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl
Matt: if there is more than one default button, there is no
benefit to coga
... it should be a relationship
clown: what if you're in a modal and that has a default button
Matt: then you're in a different window
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2015/10/01 18:11:03 $
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[34] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[35] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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Present: fesch Joseph_Scheuhammer Bryan_Garaventa JamesNurthen ShaneM Mi
chiel_Bijl Matt_King Francy Michael_Cooper
Found Date: 01 Oct 2015
Guessing minutes URL: [37]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-aria-minutes.html
People with action items:
[37] http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-aria-minutes.html
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Received on Thursday, 1 October 2015 18:13:35 UTC