Minutes for Monday, 16 November 2015 WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce

Minutes for todays meeting can be found as text in this e-mail and at this URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-aria-apg-minutes.html

Thanks everybody!

—Michiel

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

            WAI-PF ARIA Authoring Practices Guide Taskforce

16 Nov 2015

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-aria-apg-irc

Attendees

   Present
          matt_king, James_Nurthen, jaeunjemmaku, Michiel_Bijl,
          Bryan_Garaventa, LJWatson

   Regrets
   Chair
          Matt_King

   Scribe
          jamesn, MichielBijl

Contents

     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]Review mixed checkbox examples
            https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/
            checkbox/checkbox-3.html
         2. [5]Review and update pattern work assignments and
            status
            https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practi
            ces-Patterns-Status
         3. [6]Review Landmark navigation pattern section of APG
            https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-prac
            tices.html#landmarks
     * [7]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <mck> trackbot start meeting

   <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group
   Teleconference

   <trackbot> Date: 16 November 2015

   <jamesn> scribe: jamesn

Review mixed checkbox examples
[8]https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/checkbox/che
ckbox-3.html

      [8] https://rawgit.com/a11ydoer/practices/master/examples/checkbox/checkbox-3.html

   <jemma_>
   [9]https://docs.google.com/a/illinois.edu/document/d/1r5XNTLIZx
   CxyUZkqW2_4D1Nec1C8OHWOXPvRU7NqXxE/edit?usp=sharing

      [9] https://docs.google.com/a/illinois.edu/document/d/1r5XNTLIZxCxyUZkqW2_4D1Nec1C8OHWOXPvRU7NqXxE/edit?usp=sharing

   MK: should we have something in APG about browser support?

   MB: limit to words but not numbers
   ... going to be a chore to update to browser versions

   MK: we didn't make a decision to support major bersions of
   browsers
   ... our task is to provide practices which support th
   specification
   ... we need to make some sort of statement - find where we last
   discussed this
   ... pretty sure we made a resolution that we would not make an
   effort to update every example in response to eery screen
   reader or browser version change
   ... examples are not how to work around quirks
   ... best practices for compliance to spec. our expectation that
   browser and screen reader devs would use them to guauage their
   support for the design patterns
   ... recall that if there is some importatnt functionality that
   is broadly used and have to do something quirky we might
   include that but would not be our general practice

   JN: 2 different examples - when things dont work completely and
   when things are completely broken

   MK: i think the aria-labelledby example is slightly better for
   both NVDA and JAWS but the other works in some other cases and
   should be sufficient
   ... shoudl we create a bug for a section to draft our browser
   and AT approach

   [10]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29297

     [10] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=29297

   MK: in the example there is @alt on the mixed checkbox image
   ... there really should be null alt text

   <jemma_>
   [11]https://docs.google.com/a/illinois.edu/document/d/1r5XNTLIZ
   xCxyUZkqW2_4D1Nec1C8OHWOXPvRU7NqXxE/edit?usp=sharing

     [11] https://docs.google.com/a/illinois.edu/document/d/1r5XNTLIZxCxyUZkqW2_4D1Nec1C8OHWOXPvRU7NqXxE/edit?usp=sharing

   Jemma: google doc for screen reader testing

   JG: sometimes NVDA does read the grouping label, sometimes it
   doesn't
   ... with radios seems consistent, but checkboxes seems to be
   not consistent
   ... consensus to use fieldset/legend
   ... ?

   MK: both are valid

   JG: fieldset legend leaves it up to AT
   ... the 2 techniques will affect the user experience

   MK: don't know if that will always be that way

   <MichielBijl> JN: did you test between fieldset legend and
   role=group labelledby?

   MK: looking at the spex we were 99% certain we can use
   fieldset/legend in this way

   JG: that is intersting
   ... in the a11y api how is the FS/Legend exposed to at
   ... the AT finds the grouping label and then reads it
   ... think that is an interesting authoring issue
   ... the 2 techniques are saying different things about the
   accessible name
   ... the grouping thing is important in certain contexts

   MK: the ATs should always provide access to the grouping label
   in all contexts even if they don't read it automatically
   ... all ATs have a command for reading the current element and
   its label and grouping container should probably get read there
   ... the only one that does that consistently is JAWS but not
   even sure that is accurate now

   JG: shouldn't be comparing aria-labelledby with FS/Legend but
   should instead be comparing with role=group

   discussion on if group works

   JN: they should all be valid

   MK: in the wild we see all 3 approached

   JG: newbie devs want to overcontrol the experience
   ... they will latch on to the aria-labelledby example

   MK: none of the screen readers are reading the grouping label
   from the currently focussed item

   discussion of aria-describedby

   JG: does role=group work for links

   JN: no idea

   MK: if you wanted the group to be a single tab stop
   ... Jon and Jemma will add a 3rd version with role=group

   <MichielBijl>
   [12]http://s.codepen.io/boomerang/a62554037b0f8d25269b06c245ea8
   e031447699204201/index.html

     [12] http://s.codepen.io/boomerang/a62554037b0f8d25269b06c245ea8e031447699204201/index.html

   <MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl

   MB: is this what we mean?

   MK: we want to show the different ways to achieve the same
   thing
   ... we don't want to say how particular cases work
   ... what it's doing is explaining redundant code per spec
   ... redundant coding can produce redundant speech
   ... that could be a warning

   JG: developers don't want to be redundant

   [13]http://s.codepen.io/boomerang/a478ae4e07dc1cb260899459db247
   af21447699453614/index.html

     [13] http://s.codepen.io/boomerang/a478ae4e07dc1cb260899459db247af21447699453614/index.html

   [14]http://s.codepen.io/Michiel/debug/mevpMa

     [14] http://s.codepen.io/Michiel/debug/mevpMa

   Zakim nextitem

   Zakim next item

Review and update pattern work assignments and status
[15]https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Pattern
s-Status

     [15] https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Aria-Authoring-Practices-Patterns-Status

   MK: any updates?

   MB: my name still shows after alert
   ... that is done

   MK: no edits?

   BG: there are more ways to trigger a alert
   ... you can add a role of alert to a div that is already there
   ... you can also add content to a div with role=alert

   MB: do we want to implement different ways?

   MK: alert developers of ways that don't work?

   BG: if the alert is off screen it doesn't work

   MK: maybe put in a note?

   MB: rather show different ways of doing it than a note; that
   list might grow

   MK: another way is to just unhide it with CSS
   ... is html5 hidden ready?

   MB: you can use that, and have a fallback with a CSS attribute
   selector [hidden] { display: none }

   MK: can you make that?

   MB: sure

Review Landmark navigation pattern section of APG
[16]https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#
landmarks

     [16] https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#landmarks

   MK: for all intends and purposes this section is blank slate
   ... one choice is to not have a specific design pattern for
   landmarks
   ... Ann was pretty opposed
   ... we could have a design pattern here.

   MB: landmark navigation could have inline links

   MK: other parts of the APG

   JG: I'm willing to take this on
   ... I can use this for examples

   MK: do you wan't to work on the description?

   JG: I will, and see what people think

   MK: just take out te keyboard interaction section?

   JG: yes, or provide a note

   JN: “this is not your problem”
   ... we have much more important things to do and I'm in favour
   of removing it.

   JG: I think it's important, people are confused about landmarks

   MK: propose a description. I do tink we have some example work
   that is higher on the list.

   JG: over the summer we have a new student helping us with the
   examples

   <jamesn> don't forget we also have this in the APG

   <jamesn>
   [17]https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices
   .html#h-kbd_layout

     [17] https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/practices/aria-practices.html#h-kbd_layout

   JN: can I get a task and just remove (X) from the spec?

   MK: whole section doesn't really make sense

   MB: I'm interested in what Jon comes up with

   JG: I'll try to harmonise

   MK: no, don't look at this. Write something, and we might
   delete this section
   ... do we need to discuss headings and heading level in the
   guide?
   ... we need to review section 4.2

   Next item: be done!

   MK: probably no meeting 21st and 28th of December

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


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Present: matt_king James_Nurthen jaeunjemmaku Michiel_Bijl Bryan_Garaven
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Found Date: 16 Nov 2015
Guessing minutes URL: [21]http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-aria-apg-minutes.
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     [21] http://www.w3.org/2015/11/16-aria-apg-minutes.html

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