- From: Michiel Bijl <michiel@agosto.nl>
- Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2015 20:04:21 +0200
- To: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <4F6193A9-8C76-4131-A0E5-3EF83704EEE4@agosto.nl>
With thanks to everyone for the corrections and filling in the stuff I missed!
Web: http://www.w3.org/2015/07/30-aria-minutes.html
Text:
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
30 Jul 2015
[2]Agenda
[2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0088.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2015/07/30-aria-irc
Attendees
Present
Bryan_Garaventa, JamesN, Jemma, Joseph_Scheuhammer,
Markus, MichaelC, Michiel_Bijl, Rich, fesch, janina,
jongund
Regrets
Joanmarie_Diggs
Chair
Rich
Scribe
MichielBijl
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]Heads Up Items
* [6]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 30 July 2015
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[7]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/008
8.html
[7] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0088.html
<scribe> scribe: MichielBijl
Jemma: I work for UI, my first time here
... I work with Jon
MichaelC: received comments that ARIA should not focus on
accessibility API's; just API's in general
... drafting a response to Charles
<clown>
[8]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/004
9.html
[8] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0049.html
janina: ask DPUB to update document
Heads Up Items
Rich: what I want to ask to group, is be pragmatic about; don't
want it to be a emotional discussion
richardschwerdtfeger: Apple had publishers coming in that said
they need this
janina: we will be very formal about this disposition
... I would propose adding the document from DPUB if we keep
aria-describedat
mgylling: everything you said about publishers showing up on
the 13th is true
... we need it
... we don't want to be the ones that potentially stall the
aria progress
janina: we have talked about that possibility
... ARIA 1.1 is on schedule
<clown> issue-633?
<trackbot> issue-633 -- listbox and tree may contain only
static items; badly need interactive widgets that can contain
interactive typed items -- open
<trackbot> [9]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
[9] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/633
<clown> action-1688?
<trackbot> action-1688 -- James Nurthen to Draft proposal for
aria-interactive -- due 2015-10-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[10]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1688
[10] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1688
jamesn: I'm on vacation, so cannot push action forward
richardschwerdtfeger: let me have a look at it
... I'm gonna put on the 23rd of september
issue-397
<trackbot> issue-397 -- Need a way to specify an indeterminate
set size -- open
<trackbot> [11]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397
[11] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397
<clown> action-1488
<trackbot> action-1488 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose spec text
for allowing aria-setsize="999+" format change for issue-397 --
due 2015-07-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[12]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1488
[12] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1488
MichaelC: there is note that went privately to
richardschwerdtfeger and me
richardschwerdtfeger: I'm going to forward it to the list
<clown>
[13]https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1488/aria/aria.html#aria
-setsize
[13] https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1488/aria/aria.html#aria-setsize
Joseph: suffix with a + sign to indicate the setsize is at
least that amount
richardschwerdtfeger: where do you map the +?
... AT's have to handle this too
... they can't announce percentage of progress
... for the + syntax, we have to change it from an integer to a
string
... how big of an issue is this? (for API's)
<clown> issue-397?
<trackbot> issue-397 -- Need a way to specify an indeterminate
set size -- open
<trackbot> [14]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397
[14] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397
richardschwerdtfeger: we can do, no question
Joseph: you can put it in the spec, but it's at risk if we
can't find mappings
richardschwerdtfeger: the apple platform does not have a object
mapping
Joseph: James Craig is not against it
... is it mapped to AXValue?
... oh it's AXARIASetSize
richardschwerdtfeger: to me this comes down to an API mapping
issue
If an unknown set size exceeds a known and meaningful amount,
authors may append a plus sign ("+") to the value to
communicate the set size is at least that amount. Otherwise,
authors should set the value of aria-setsize to -1.
richardschwerdtfeger: are people okay with this?
Joseph: Cynthia said the IE team likes the setsize="-1"
notation
... that to me means that they don't like the + notation
[15]http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#progressbar
[15] http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#progressbar
<richardschwerdtfeger>
[16]https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1488/aria/aria.html#prog
ressbar
[16] https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1488/aria/aria.html#progressbar
If the progressbar is describing the loading progress of a
particular region of a page, the author SHOULD use
aria-describedby to point to the status, and set the aria-busy
attribute to true on the region until it is finished loading
jamesn: prefer to say we have at least X
richardschwerdtfeger: does anyone object to setsize="-1"?
... the resolution is that we will specify an indeterminate by
setting setsize to -1
RESOLUTION: we will specify an indeterminate by setting setsize
to -1
<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: We will not be supporting
set sizes 999+ for sizes of at least that size for ARIA 1.1
action-1498
<trackbot> action-1498 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Draft "term" role
(related to html dfn/dt elements) in addition to the 1.0
"definition" (equiv to html dd element) -- due 2015-07-30 --
PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[17]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1498
[17] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1498
richardschwerdtfeger: using the term role on a link will mean
that the link role is lost
<clown>
[18]https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1498/aria/aria.html#term
[18] https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1498/aria/aria.html#term
<richardschwerdtfeger> [ARIA 1.1] A word or phrase with a
corresponding definition. See related definition.
<richardschwerdtfeger> The term role is used to explicitly
identify a word or phrase for which a definition has been
provided by the author or is expected to be provided by the
user.
<richardschwerdtfeger> Authors SHOULD NOT use the term role on
interactive elements such as links because doing so could
prevent users of assistive technologies from interacting with
those elements.
Joseph: the problem is, we had a definition role, but no term
role
richardschwerdtfeger: we need a link to definition in the
second paragraph
Joseph: the term is interactive, and if you click it the
definition shows
janina: I like that clicking the term shows the definition
richardschwerdtfeger: what we're saying is that the definition
must immediately follow the term
Joseph: it's like dt and dd
... do we need a definition list role?
<clown>
[19]https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1498/aria/aria.html#defi
nition
[19] https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1498/aria/aria.html#definition
jongund: why not use term and term-item?
Joseph: role definition should have a aria-labelledby on it
richardschwerdtfeger: then should it be in a list? You can have
it anywhere
jongund: could I use an aria-label on the definition?
richardschwerdtfeger: you cannot because you don't have a
visual link between the term and the definition
... the term and the definition don't have to be side by side
fesch: what happens when you have multiple definitions pointed
to the same term
Joseph: that is allowed with dt's and dd's in the HTML spec
<richardschwerdtfeger> Proposal: we accept Joanie’s text for
action 1498 with the caviat that the second paragraph link the
definition text with the definition role and that in the
definition role the aria-labelledy SHOULD point to an element
with a role of “term”
MichielBijl: mgylling: what about aria-describedBy on the term?
Joseph: you could do that
richardschwerdtfeger: the author could screw up
mgylling: I wasn't saying we should have both, just wondering
<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Accept Rich’s proposal and
jave Joanie make the changes and close out action 1498 and the
associated issue
action-1657
<trackbot> action-1657 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Make aria-level a
required attribute for role=“heading” -- due 2015-06-25 --
PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot>
[20]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1657
[20] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1657
<clown>
[21]https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#heading
[21] https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#heading
Where it states: "If headings are organized into a logical
outline, the aria-level attribute can be used to indicate the
nesting level."
richardschwerdtfeger: all we have to do, is make it a required
attribute
Joseph: it's required in the characteristics table
<clown>
[22]https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#heading
[22] https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#heading
A heading for a section of the page.
Often, heading elements will be referenced with the
aria-labelledby attribute of the section for which they serve
as a heading. If headings are organized into a logical outline,
the aria-level attribute is used to indicate the nesting level.
richardschwerdtfeger: resolution: accept joanie's text
RESOLUTION: accept joanie's text, and close the action and
issue
issue-736
<trackbot> issue-736 -- aria-label overriding listitem and
treeitem content when need to know content is valuable -- open
<trackbot> [23]https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/736
[23] https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/736
richardschwerdtfeger: in other words, the content is important
<clown>
[24]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/00
97.html
[24] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0097.html
richardschwerdtfeger: how do you think we should approach this
one?
<clown>
[25]http://clown.idrc.ocad.ca/Fluid/aria/ListItemsWithLabels.ht
ml
[25] http://clown.idrc.ocad.ca/Fluid/aria/ListItemsWithLabels.html
Joseph: I setup a use case, with and without an aria-label
... if you put a label on it, the name is changed, but the
content is still available in AI2 and ??
richardschwerdtfeger: by putting an aria-label on it should the
content be ignored?
Joseph: take a look at my usecase
richardschwerdtfeger: what if the additional content inside the
list item is important?
Joseph: it's still available
richardschwerdtfeger: but how do users know that they should
drill into the list item?
bgaraventa1979: we have the same problem with aria grid, if you
have a grid cell with a list with 200+ items; you don't want
all that information to be announced
... there is no limit to how much content you can stuff into a
list item
richardschwerdtfeger: would you want to know if the content
inside has additional value?
Joseph: if you don't put the label on, the name is taken from
the content
jamesn: that is in the spec
... if it's the same content, it's an author error; not our
problem, right?
bgaraventa1979: if you put aria-label on it, AT hides the
content
jamesn: that is how it's supposed to be
Joseph: the AT hides the content, it's available in the a11y
API's
richardschwerdtfeger: I'd like people to think about this for a
week
jamesn: a tweet is a good example, you want the author and
tweet text to be announced at the list item level; you don't
want the reply, etc buttons announced
richardschwerdtfeger: let's take this up next week
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [26]scribe.perl version
1.140 ([27]CVS log)
$Date: 2015/07/30 17:59:12 $
__________________________________________________________
[26] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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[28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
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Found Scribe: MichielBijl
Inferring ScribeNick: MichielBijl
Present: Bryan_Garaventa JamesN Jemma Joseph_Scheuhammer Markus MichaelC
Michiel_Bijl Rich fesch janina jongund
Regrets: Joanmarie_Diggs
Agenda: [29]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/008
8.html
Found Date: 30 Jul 2015
Guessing minutes URL: [30]http://www.w3.org/2015/07/30-aria-minutes.html
People with action items:
[29] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jul/0088.html
[30] http://www.w3.org/2015/07/30-aria-minutes.html
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[31] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
—Michiel
Received on Thursday, 30 July 2015 18:04:39 UTC