- From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
- Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 14:35:58 -0500
- To: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org>
Minutes from the 3 December teleconference of the ARIA Working Group are
provided below as text, and are available as hypertext at:
http://www.w3.org/2015/12/03-aria-minutes.html
W3C
- DRAFT -
Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
03 Dec 2015
Agenda
See also: IRC log
Attendees
Present
MichaelC, Michiel_Bijl, Rich, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Fred, Joanmarie_Diggs, janina, fesch, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Cynthia, Bryan_Garaventa, Matt_King, JF, suman
Regrets
Chair
Rich
Scribe
janina
Contents
* Topics
1. status of wgs, pubs
2. action-1736
3. action 1734
* Summary of Action Items
* Summary of Resolutions
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0265.html
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-ARIA Working Group
<richardschwerdtfeger> chair: Rich
<scribe> scribe: janina
status of wgs, pubs
Today is the last formal day for pf
We intend ton continue to use the email esources, etc., until we get more of our active people joined
Invited experts are still not migrated to the new groups, for instance
Request is pending, and Michael is pinging on it
rs: Can we stay on pf in the meantime
mc: Don't expect it will be closed down
mc If something happens, I'll be on it immediately
mc: re pubs
... All 3 aria related pubs published today
... was hair raising as approvals came in late
[congrats all around]
rs: Notes he's on vacation next week, Michael will chair with focus on testable statements
... It allows people to get work done over the next weeks without necessarily showing up at a telecon
... Is the intent to move to aria lists in January?
mc: Yes, both for aria and apa
rs: asking whether aapi work should move or stay on x-tech
mc: we did it initially because it was publically postable
... public-aria will be publically readable
jd: x-tech is also publically writable, so was part of the reason, no?
mc: That was setup later
janina: notes is an apa list, not aria
clown: makes it appropriate for aapi
mc: Reason public-aria isn't self-subscrible is concerns over rand
<bgaraventa1979> np :)
mk: did other groups have these concerns? Outside of wai?
mc: Some have allowed self-subscription, which is why we're being pushed for it
... neither approach is wrong according to the w3c rules
rs: I believe all our work is open, that's important to our success
mc: it is possible to be added by request to me, though at this point i would not grand because of rand
... If you're contributing, you should be a wg member and have accepted the terms
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0265.html
mc: another reason is that signing up includes the promise to behave -- and someone who isn't can be bumped on that basis
... this has been an issue on other lists
... those two concerns are why I have strong reservations about allowing self-subscription
rs: Agree people have abused in the past, and I want to avoid that going forward
mc: It's hard to boot someone who self-subscribed, whereas there are agreements about behavior when you join the wg
mk: a moderated subscribe would avoid this, no?
mc: If there's a practice where people filtering is necessary, it could be a problem
rs: We need to be able to exclude someone who becomes disruptive
... a moderated request to ask sometime next year? That would be OK
mc: Let's make sure we get wider review before we go with that
<bgaraventa1979> +q
mk: asking about nonmember sharing ip on list, aren't you required to claim that at some point?
mc: More likely by oversight than illwill, but members have higher bar of awareness
... also, we need participants to make a commitment to contribute to the wg
janina: concern about unacknowledged terms
mc: more work, but can be done
fe: will there be a list of subscribers?
mc: will need to look into that. There's a listing I can see, but unaware of it's public
<JF> +1 Bryan
janina: asking whether we're staying with public plus admin for members only
mc: admin for CfC's primarily, which needs to be member only
rs: Should we have Michael investigate a moderated subscription approach and give a proposal?
... I think it appropriate that we do our best to open as much as is reasonable
... Sometime in January?
mc: Ideal to respond sooner rather than later
... Main thing we need is the terms email that needs to be agreed
rs: Asking whether there any issues with Michael proceeding to institute a moderated subscription process
<JF> +1
fe: Does this apply to joint TFs?
mc: Each list has its own procedures
RESOLUTION: Michael will create a moderated subscription procedure and et to Rich for CfC posting
<cyns> I have another meeting and needed to drop off
mc: do we still need the wai x-tech list?
rs: don't think so
clown: OK with moving aapi to aria list
... but only when I get subscribed! :>
<richardschwerdtfeger> acl bg
<richardschwerdtfeger> acl bg
RESOLUTION: Current x-tech discussions will move to public-aria at the beginning of the year
rs: Looking forward
... We'll revisit the description disambiguation mechanism on the 17th
... Next week is test stuff with Michael
... We will break the weeks of Dec 21, 28 and Jan 4
... First 2016 meeting will be January 14
action-1736
action-1736?
<trackbot> action-1736 -- James Nurthen to Create an attribute to indicate a button is the primary button -- due 2015-10-19 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1736
rs: Hmmm, no JN
... Is there strong feeling to keep this for ARIA-1.1, someone would need to take it up
... This is from the Mac platform ...
mb: I can take a crack at it
... jn was to write, and I was to proof
rs: How strongly do people want this?
mk: A weak req
... very little at does much of anything with this
... Never relied on this feature in any platform -- after 30 years of using at
mb: Just interested because can be used for styling
<JF> +1 to a coga issue... was going to suggest that
rs: Know he'd like it, but believe we'd have had the proposal if it were really necessary for 1.1
jf: Notes that enter immediately triggers submit, even if not marked as primary
rs: we keep pushing out the writeup -- for months
<joanie> +1 to what JF just said about being a nice-to-have; not a critical.
rs: sounds like a nice to have, but not essential for 1.1
... Any objection to push to 2.0?
RESOLUTION: Move Issue-624 to 2.0 since no proposal since logged in 2013
<clown> issue-624
<trackbot> issue-624 -- Primary Action Concept -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/624
mb: Would like to try getting it done?
rs: How soon?
mb: Next week?
... Would like to try
mc: Ping me if you want it on the agenda by Monday
<clown> action-1724
<trackbot> action-1724 -- Matthew King to Create a proposal to simplify grids in order to incorporate the list view concept -- due 2015-09-17 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1724
<clown> issue-610
<trackbot> issue-610 -- Comboboxes should allow complex children elements -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/610
mk: Concerned not to lose agenda time for 1724 and action and issue-610
... Text for action-1724 is ready, but not yet posted for advance reading
... I'm able to send tomorrow
mc: Important that time between the 10th and when we meet January 14 a dead time -- testable statements could move forward then
... Will need to limit the time next week on other topics
action 1734
action-1734?
<trackbot> action-1734 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Get back to jason white on comment -- due 2015-10-15 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1734
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Nov/0264.html
rs: Problem with old table summary was only visible to at
<JF> +1
mk: would like to see "caption" and "description" defined so we can clearly discuss
janina: References previous discussion in HTML-A11Y about how long might be too long for alt. Discussion never concluded
mk: concerned that discussion is difficult because no one's clear what the terms mean
jf: Agree with mk
... we need a label for grx, we need a short description and a long description
... wonders whether mk agrees
mk: concerned there's also a 4th, where only visible via aapis
rs: Don't see this in aria-1.1
fe: professional orgs will have guidelines for what goes in caption, and we shouldn't be guiding that
<Zakim> JF, you wanted to say taht Matt's point about "on-demand" is important
jf: Reminding that user choice to read long descripts is important--any user should be able to get at it
rs: Recalling that we have problems with lack of ml support in some browsers
... I'm not trying to dodge the issue, just saying it's going to take longer than aria-1.1
... We can do some things for 1.1, esp via details
... reminds everyone that disambiguating use of details is our topic on dec 17
clown: bringing it back to rs' answer to jason ...
rs: currently not ideal
mk: recalling we had discussion on how to add a caption in a table, but did not conclude ...
... believe caption in table has served as its label
rs: you could have aria-labeledby to the label in the description
mk: this could get complicated in mapping html
rs: thinking of fig-caption referenced by describedby
mk: Argh
... more mapping problems
... duplicated words, sounds bad
... would read the label twice
clown: the words
mk: so table role for 1.1 and the aam will something about mapping ...
rs: if aria, it's easy
mk: just don't want caption to map into multiple ways
topic action 1672
action-1672?
<trackbot> action-1672 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Mark aria-grabbed, aria-dropeffect as deprecated and provide reference definition of derprecated -- due 2015-08-16 --
OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1672
rs: jd, is this cleared?
jd: not finding the language I think mc provided ...
... believe he did, but I can't find ...
... I'll keep looking, can mc also look?
mc: will check my outbox
<JF> Deprecated A deprecated element or attribute is one that has been outdated by newer constructs. Deprecated elements are defined in the reference manual in
appropriate locations, but are clearly marked as deprecated. Deprecated elements may become obsolete in future versions of HTML.
<JF> source: http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/conform.html
mc: recall the discussion and commiting to propose lang, but don't ecall beyond that
<mck> good one Joanie!
rs: lang needs to say "to be replaced with alternative in a lter version of aria"
mc: thought "replaced in this version, ..."
... Don't think we should mark things deprecated that don't have a replacement
<JF> +1 to Michael's point
jd: this is sounding more familiar
[people looking whether it's already in the spec]
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-grabbed
rs: not seeing it
mc: nothing in the commits
<richardschwerdtfeger> This property is planned for deprecation in a future version of WAI-ARiA.
mk: this feature is planned to be deprecated in the future?
jd: if ua's not already implemented this, don't bother implementing
mc: we did that for describedat
... we can add tot he terms
... have mixed feelings about "we intend to deprecate"
... but that's better than calling it "deprecated" when we don't have a replacement in place
... sort of "pre-deprecating"
<richardschwerdtfeger> This property is planned for deprecation in a future version of WAI-ARiA with a replacement.
<richardschwerdtfeger> This property is planned for deprecation, with a replacement, in a future version of WAI-ARiA.
rs: does it need to come back to the wg?
clown: would like to see the action moved to me so can take it to core aam
<Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask should something about deprecation be added to the mapping spec (core-aam) and to point out that James Nurthen sent text for primary
button to the mailing
<Zakim> clown, you wanted to point out that James Nurthen sent text for primary button to the mailing list.
Summary of Action Items
Summary of Resolutions
1. Michael will create a moderated subscription procedure and et to Rich for CfC posting
2. Current x-tech discussions will move to public-aria at the beginning of the year
3. Move Issue-624 to 2.0 since no proposal since logged in 2013
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Found Scribe: janina
Present: MichaelC Michiel_Bijl Rich Joseph_Scheuhammer Fred Joanmarie_Diggs janina fesch Rich_Schwerdtfeger Cynthia Bryan_Garaventa Matt_King JF suman
--
Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200
sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
Email: janina@rednote.net
Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org
The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Protocols & Formats http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
Received on Thursday, 3 December 2015 19:36:24 UTC