minutes: September 15, 2014 WAI PF ARIA Caucus

Draft minutes are posted at the following URL and follow my signature in 
plain text.

http://www.w3.org/2014/09/15-aria-minutes.html

Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement 
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
mattking@us.ibm.com

W3C <http://www.w3.org/>


  - DRAFT -


  Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
  15 Sep 2014

Agenda <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Sep/0065.html>

See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2014/09/15-aria-irc>


    Attendees

Present
    Michael_Cooper, janina, +1.703.978.aaaa, Joseph_Scheuhammer,
    +1.603.882.aabb, Joanmarie_Diggs, Fred_Hesch, Jon_Gunderson,
    Cynthia_Shelly, +1.541.678.aacc, Matt_King, Léonie_Watson,
    Fred_Esch, Lisa_Seeman, +1.415.624.aadd, Bryan_Garaventa
Regrets
    Rich_Schwerdtfeger, James_Craig, Stefan_Schnabel
Chair
    Michael_Cooper
Scribe
    matt_king


    Contents

  * Topics <#agenda>
     1. Status on wiki for tracking user agent defects on ARIA 1.1
        features <#item01>
     2. Status using wiki for tracking aria 1.1 features <#item02>
     3. Issue 631 Property to provide keyboard help when element has
        focus <#item03>
     4. review open action items <#item04>
     5. Other discussion <#item05>
  * Summary of Action Items <#ActionSummary>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

<trackbot> Date: 15 September 2014

<MichaelC> meeting: WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

<scribe> scribe: matt_king

<MichaelC> scribeNick: mattking


      Status on wiki for tracking user agent defects on ARIA 1.1 features


      Status using wiki for tracking aria 1.1 features

No news on this topic.

Will be discussed tues night at f2f

CS: please see if we can get a room with a whiteboard.


      Issue 631 Property to provide keyboard help when element has focus

<MichaelC> issue-631?

<trackbot> issue-631 -- Property to provide keyboard help when element
has focus -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/631

<MichaelC>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2012JanMar/0010.html
<
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2012JanMar/0010.html
>

<MichaelC>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2012JanMar/0011.html
<
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2012JanMar/0011.html
>

MC: Comment on 1.0; response is that we would consider in 1.1.
... Help for SR users that explains how to operate when uncommon key
commands are required.
... would prefer a dedicated attribute for this purpose.

LW: Would this be an author provided attribute?

MC: Yes. The comment says this could be at times long so comment
recommended that a reference to a description.

LS: You can not use aria-label for this purpose.

<bgaraventa1979> +q

<MichaelC> mk: don´t want to encourage bad design by providing a way to
explain around it. Authors should design well from the start, and use
aria-describedby or something in the few situations they truly have to
explain it. IndieUI is the long term solution.

LW: There is a problem to solve b/c it is difficult for SR users to know
what is scripted.
... but there would be no easy to visually represent the attribute.

JS: Indie UI needs to be considered and so we should probably postpone
to 2.0 b/c Ineie UI is not ready yet.
... we do not want to have to re-do it in 2.0.

BG: I support it. Often there are too many key commands on a single
widget, e.g., a tree that supports both drag/drop and context menus
... You can add aria-drop but there is not a standard command for that.

MK: I do not understand why ctrl+v or command+v can not be scripted for
drop.

Joanie: I agree there is a problem to solve, but I too think that Indie
UI is the path. Strings alone do not provide a robust answer.
... action interfaces also help with globalization

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to mention context sensitive help and to
ask about the Access Module approach

BG: Does Indie UI solution provide the ability to provide
context-specific interaction information?

CS: The patterns proposed for 2.0 do exactly what Brian described.

LW: Can we take the recommended kb actins in APG it make a more visible
reference and perhaps also provide a touch guide as well.

MC: there is a separate proposal for a form control specific help and
they may be a better attribute to overload if we implement it.

<MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-access/

LS: When aria-controledby is used,the UA should be able to provide help
on how to use it.

LW: Can we explore how to mkae the relationship information more useful
in the UAs?

CS: I think that some kind of aria-help or something like that could be
valuable. For example, in Windows, thre is a separate key help field
... In IE, this is not visually rendered at this time.
... The purpose for pattern is self-describing controls.
... the bigger issue really should be a 2.0 time frame solution so we
can exploit patterns.
... The web apps group could benefit from the xhtml module.

<Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask whether Brian is solving a problem
from a specific toolkit?

JS: Brian, are you trying to solve a problem that come from a particular
web dev toolkit.

BG: Yes

JS: Is this a broken toolkit or a general problem?

BG: I think there are general problems.
... I see aria-haspopu used everywhere but there is not a consistent way
for activating them.

<Lisa_Seeman> i need to go...

MK: there should not be help required to open a standard context menu

BG: What about the example of drag/drop that Joseph provided where ctrl
left/right is used. How would this be communicated in the wild.

JS: the help is right on the page.

BG: designers resist putting on on the page.

JG: This would likely be a redudntat way of mapping to eh a11y api
... if it just goes to aria-describedby on some platforms, then it
doesn't really help\

JS: We adivse people to put a help button in their app that describes
keyboard help.
... you do not need special aria properties for that.

CS: A mechanism for mapping markup to platoform kb mappings is
definitely needed.
... The answer is needed but it may not be an aira thing.
... There are api fields for keybaord help on windows and having an aria
mapping for that would be nice.

MC: there is no consensus that this is apppropriate for aria 1.1 or even
aria.
... do we want to do thin in the aria 1.1 time frame?

*RESOLUTION: A specific solution for keyboard guidance is not in scope
for ARIA 1.1.*

MC: If there were a solution for help text, would it be a adequate
solution to the keyboard guidance problem?

<clown> issue-406?

<trackbot> issue-406 -- Proposal for new aria-hint property. (Previously
proposed as @aria-help) -- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/406

CS: On windows this would be nice b/c it would be parallel to how native
apps work.

JS: issue 406 is on the 1.1 agenda

*RESOLUTION: Resolving issue 631 could be explored as part of resolving
issue 406.*

MC: Do we want this issue solved post aria 1.1?

Consensus that a future solution is needed.

MC: propose we move the issue to 2.0

<MichaelC> issue-406: consider whether this feature can also address the
use case raised by issue-631

<trackbot> Notes added to issue-406 Proposal for new aria-hint property.
(Previously proposed as @aria-help).

*RESOLUTION: Reassign issue 631 to ARIA 2.0 and add a note to issue 406
TO LOOK FOR INTERIM SOLUTIONS.*

<MichaelC> issue-631: Will explore again in ARIA 2.0, including question
of whether to solve in ARIA or another technology

<trackbot> Notes added to issue-631 Property to provide keyboard help
when element has focus.


      review open action items

<clown> action-1322?

<trackbot> action-1322 -- Jon Gunderson to Make some examples for
aria-hidden="false" (including a hidden live region) -- due 2013-12-23
-- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1322

action-1322?

<trackbot> action-1322 -- Jon Gunderson to Make some examples for
aria-hidden="false" (including a hidden live region) -- due 2013-12-23
-- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1322

JG: can I have 2 more weeks?

<MichaelC> action-1322 due 2 weeks

<trackbot> Set action-1322 Make some examples for aria-hidden="false"
(including a hidden live region) due date to 2014-09-29.

MC: yes, pls post to list.

action-1389?

<trackbot> action-1389 -- Cynthia Shelly to Gather more information
about secondary information (desc, tooltip, etc) -- due 2014-03-03 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1389

<clown> action-1389?

<trackbot> action-1389 -- Cynthia Shelly to Gather more information
about secondary information (desc, tooltip, etc) -- due 2014-03-03 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1389

<MichaelC> action-1389 due 3 weeks

<trackbot> Set action-1389 Gather more information about secondary
information (desc, tooltip, etc) due date to 2014-10-06.

CS: not yet done. Need 3 more weeks..

actin-1397?

<clown> action-1397?

<trackbot> action-1397 -- Jon Gunderson to Create proposal to fill out
aria table semantics (tfoot, rowspan, colspan, thead, caption, etc.) --
due 2014-03-10 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1397

JG: this should be closed.

<MichaelC> close action-1397

<trackbot> Closed action-1397.

action-1423?

<trackbot> action-1423 -- Cynthia Shelly to Ask developers about group,
none, and generic roles and whether it would be helpful for
implementatation of e.g., narrator -- due 2014-05-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1423

<MichaelC> action-1423 due 1 week

<trackbot> Set action-1423 Ask developers about group, none, and generic
roles and whether it would be helpful for implementatation of e.g.,
narrator due date to 2014-09-22.

CS: I have the information but need to compile; need 1 more week.

<MichaelC> action-1438 due 15 october

<trackbot> Set action-1438 Set up auto publish to GH Pages for editors'
drafts https://pages.github.com due date to 2014-10-15.

action-1442?

<trackbot> action-1442 -- Léonie Watson to Create spec. text for
aria-currentfor="IDREF" and aria-current="true/false", related to
issue-587 -- due 2014-05-26 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1442

LW: I will pick out the feedback from the thread and start a clean thread.

MC: Discussion needs to be added a a call agenda.

<MichaelC> action-1461 due 1 week

<trackbot> Set action-1461 Ask an html-aapi editor to bring question of
@inert to html a11y tf due date to 2014-09-22.

action-1461?

<trackbot> action-1461 -- Michael Cooper to Ask an html-aapi editor to
bring question of @inert to html a11y tf -- due 2014-09-22 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1461

action-1462?

<trackbot> action-1462 -- Cynthia Shelly to Discuss computed role with
ie team -- due 2014-06-30 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1462

<MichaelC> action-1462 due 1 week

<trackbot> Set action-1462 Discuss computed role with ie team due date
to 2014-09-22.

CS: need 1 more week.

action-1463?

<trackbot> action-1463 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Keep issue-427 on radar
for aapi meetings -- due 2014-06-30 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1463

<MichaelC> action-1463 due 1 week

<trackbot> Set action-1463 Keep issue-427 on radar for aapi meetings due
date to 2014-09-22.

JS: dependent on Cynthia.

MC: Moving due date out

<MichaelC> action-1464 due 1 week

<trackbot> Set action-1464 Discuss implications of
Element.computedRole() with Blink team due date to 2014-09-22.

action-1471?

<trackbot> action-1471 -- Jon Gunderson to Start list of requirements
for aria 1.1 -- due 2014-07-07 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1471

<MichaelC> action-1471 due 3 weeks

<trackbot> Set action-1471 Start list of requirements for aria 1.1 due
date to 2014-10-06.

JG: Need 3 weeks.

MC: want before f2f.

action-1473

<trackbot> action-1473 -- Cynthia Shelly to Prepare recommendation on
automation of tracking of bugs filed with various implementers -- due
2014-07-07 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1473

<MichaelC> action-1473 due 30 oct

<trackbot> Set action-1473 Prepare recommendation on automation of
tracking of bugs filed with various implementers due date to 2014-10-30.

action-1474?

<trackbot> action-1474 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Work with joseph s. and
david b. to rewrite text alternative computation for both the aria spec.
and the core accessibility api mappings specification. -- due 2014-09-04
-- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1474

<MichaelC> action-1474 due 30 oct

<trackbot> Set action-1474 Work with joseph s. and david b. to rewrite
text alternative computation for both the aria spec. and the core
accessibility api mappings specification. due date to 2014-10-30.

Joseph: should te a tpac doc

<clown> action-1485?

<trackbot> action-1485 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Raise issue-397 with
moz/nvda devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format -- due 2014-08-18 -- 
OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1485

action-1485?

<trackbot> action-1485 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Raise issue-397 with
moz/nvda devs regarding aria-setsize="999+" format -- due 2014-08-18 -- 
OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1485

<clown> action-1486?

<trackbot> action-1486 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Inspect webkit
backwards-compatibility regarding aria-setsize="999+" format for
issue-397 -- due 2014-07-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1486

<clown> issue-397?

<trackbot> issue-397 -- Need a way to specify an indeterminate set size
-- open

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/397

<MichaelC> action-1485 due 2 weeks

<trackbot> Set action-1485 Raise issue-397 with moz/nvda devs regarding
aria-setsize="999+" format due date to 2014-09-29.

<MichaelC> action-1486 due 2 weeks

<trackbot> Set action-1486 Inspect webkit backwards-compatibility
regarding aria-setsize="999+" format for issue-397 due date to 2014-09-29.

Joanie: need 3 weeks.

<MichaelC> action-1487 due 1 weeks

<trackbot> Set action-1487 Raise issue-397 with ie/trident devs
regarding aria-setsize="999+" format (mainly, would the format change
break backwards-compalibility with ie source?) due date to 2014-09-22.

action-1489?

<trackbot> action-1489 -- Michael Cooper to Propose spec text to limit
what aria attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g.,
aria-label and aria-labelledby) -- due 2014-07-28 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1489

<MichaelC> action-1489 due 4 weeks

<trackbot> Set action-1489 Propose spec text to limit what aria
attributes can be overridden by strong native semantics (e.g.,
aria-label and aria-labelledby) due date to 2014-10-13.

MC: need 4 weeks

action-1493?

<trackbot> action-1493 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose spec text
allowing ¨implicit value for role¨ to provide default values for
required properties -- due 2014-09-09 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1493

<MichaelC> action-1493 due 2 weeks

<trackbot> Set action-1493 Propose spec text allowing ¨implicit value
for role¨ to provide default values for required properties due date to
2014-09-29.

Joseph: 2 more weeks.


      Other discussion

JG: is there other test case work that needs to be done?

CS: there are test cases that didn't get run b/c we already met 
conformance.
... some cases are not run for IE, and that info would be helpful.

MC: Getting test cases for new features created in a more timely manner
would be helpful.

JG: Right now I have people that want to do stuff and do not want to
lose their interest.

Lisa: Is PF meeting at the F2F?

MC: no PF specific meetings, but there are ARIA topics.


    Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2014-09-15 18:26:51 $

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/CS/MC/
Succeeded: s/owuld/would/
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Found Scribe: matt_king
Found ScribeNick: mattking
Default Present: Michael_Cooper, janina, +1.703.978.aaaa, 
Joseph_Scheuhammer, +1.603.882.aabb, Joanmarie_Diggs, Fred_Hesch, 
Jon_Gunderson, Cynthia_Shelly, +1.541.678.aacc, Matt_King, Léonie_Watson, 
Fred_Esch, Lisa_Seeman, +1.415.624.aadd, Bryan_Garaventa
Present: Michael_Cooper janina +1.703.978.aaaa Joseph_Scheuhammer 
+1.603.882.aabb Joanmarie_Diggs Fred_Hesch Jon_Gunderson Cynthia_Shelly 
+1.541.678.aacc Matt_King Léonie_Watson Fred_Esch Lisa_Seeman 
+1.415.624.aadd Bryan_Garaventa
Regrets: Rich_Schwerdtfeger James_Craig Stefan_Schnabel
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Sep/0065.html
Found Date: 15 Sep 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/09/15-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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