FW: [WebAIM] Keyboard navigation using arrows only

I thought I'd pass this thread along in case it's of interest to anyone here.

-----Original Message-----
From: webaim-forum-bounces@list.webaim.org [mailto:webaim-forum-bounces@list.webaim.org] On Behalf Of Mallory van Achterberg
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 1:16 PM
To: webaim-forum@list.webaim.org
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Keyboard navigation using arrows only

On Wed, Sep 03, 2014 at 11:29:52AM -0500, Michael Tangen wrote:
> I get your point, but the problem is that all of the documentation out 
> there for creating accessible web menus is in itself both convoluted 
> and inaccessible to the average web developer/designer.  You know why 
> there's a lot of "hacks" out there?  This would be the reason.

I have to agree with this, and I feel I'm not too horrible at reading "spec-ese". Tutorials and blogs with proven, correct implementations are the only thing saving a lot of us at the moment, which is a bit of a shame because with for example these menus (if one chooses the convoluted-in-my-opinion menu roles instead of the traditional unordered nested list) is that if you use the wrong roles, you can easily totally break the whole menu.

And even when you get it right, a "typical" (non-developer) screen reader user may still have no idea wtf this menu (or whatever widget) is or how to use it (as evidenced by my co-tester on a website which used a correct implementation of the menu-role setup for a mega-menu, where she was quite confused as what the structure actually meant, especially as NVDA (her normal reader) and JAWS15 (her testing reader) both worked but acted slightly different).
...and yes, users have a responsibility to learn their software but being both relatively "new" and often not so straight-forward means there are a good number of users having trouble figuring out correct implementations and hearing new things being announced.

_mallory

-----Original Message-----
From: webaim-forum-bounces@list.webaim.org [mailto:webaim-forum-bounces@list.webaim.org] On Behalf Of Michael Tangen
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 9:30 AM
To: WebAIM Discussion List
Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Keyboard navigation using arrows only

I get your point, but the problem is that all of the documentation out there for creating accessible web menus is in itself both convoluted and inaccessible to the average web developer/designer.  You know why there's a lot of "hacks" out there?  This would be the reason.


On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Bryan Garaventa < bryan.garaventa@whatsock.com> wrote:

> I understand, my point isn't with your implementation, but with the 
> use of ARIA for this purpose, which won't work as expected for screen reader users.
>
> The reason for ARIA menu markup isn't just to announce 'submenu' or 
> 'menu', but this actually causes specific behaviors to occur within 
> browser/AT combinations, and using ARIA just to get screen readers to 
> announce a specific keyword is an ARIA hack that goes against the spec.
> Meaning that it won't work reliably across devices as a result.
>
> You would be better served using offscreen text as part of the link in 
> order to achieve this, than you would using ARIA improperly for this 
> purpose.
>
> I don't mean to sound harsh about this, but I see implementations such 
> as these every day, and they never work reliably across browsers and 
> devices when programmed in ways that are not expected by user agents 
> and ATs in accord with the spec.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: webaim-forum-bounces@list.webaim.org [mailto:
> webaim-forum-bounces@list.webaim.org] On Behalf Of Michael Tangen
> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 9:11 AM
> To: WebAIM Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Keyboard navigation using arrows only
>
> I'm not talking about Windows menus, Bryan — just basic web-based 
> navigation.  With a deep-linking menu on a website, both the 
> attributes aria-haspopup on the <a> tag and the role="menu" on the 
> submenu UL tag cue JAWS in on that there's a submenu and announce it 
> accordingly.  The physical presence of an "arrow" in a website menu 
> does not necessarily add significant value (in my opinion) when the 
> aforementioned attributes facilitate the announcing of the presence of 
> a submenu.  Can it add some level of benefit?  Sure, but I think most of the value is for sited users.
>  Just my take on it.
>
> Also for what it's worth, Microsoft Windows controls are irrelevant 
> when you're trying to build websites and be agnostic about operating 
> systems and browsers.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Bryan Garaventa < 
> bryan.garaventa@whatsock.com> wrote:
>
> > >When a link tag has the aria attribute aria-haspopup="true", JAWS
> > actually announces the words "has submenu".  So really, the arrow is 
> > only of value to sighted users.
> >
> > That's not true actually.
> >
> > Regarding ARIA Menus, the Windows platform UI equivalent for this is 
> > documented at
> >
> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.windows.controls.cont

> > ex
> > tmenu.aspx
> >
> > When an ARIA Menu is constructed strictly according to spec, It 
> > causes specific events to fire in the browser, which Assistive 
> > Technologies then use to ensure accessibility by customizing feedback and behavior.
> >
> > This process is documented in the UAIG, at 
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#mapping_events_menus

> >
> > If you try the following demo using JAWS in IE or FF, you will see 
> > this in
> > action:
> >
> > http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Menus/Vertical%20(Inte

> > rn
> > al%20Content)/demo.htm
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: webaim-forum-bounces@list.webaim.org [mailto:
> > webaim-forum-bounces@list.webaim.org] On Behalf Of Michael Tangen
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 4:40 PM
> > To: WebAIM Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [WebAIM] Keyboard navigation using arrows only
> >
> > When a link tag has the aria attribute aria-haspopup="true", JAWS 
> > actually announces the words "has submenu".  So really, the arrow is 
> > only of value to sighted users.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Mallory van Achterberg < 
> > stommepoes@stommepoes.nl> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Sep 02, 2014 at 02:40:22PM -0500, Michael Tangen wrote:
> > > > It all has to do with the placement of role="menu", role="menuitem"
> > > > and a variety of other ARIA attributes.
> > >
> > > My fault for mentioning menus... it's apparently the entire site 
> > > in this case.
> > >
> > > >    - I also found that for some reason, the *first level* LI 
> > > > tags need
> > an
> > > >    attribute role="menu" if you want the presence of a sub-menu to be
> > > >    announced.
> > > Yeah the specs mention the main ul is "menubar" while the li's are 
> > > "menu"s.
> > > I would think this is to do with the type of "menu" the specs seem 
> > > to be written for: application menus where each option is often 
> > > itself a sort of mini-application-menu.
> > >
> > > _mallory
> > > _______________________________________________
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Received on Wednesday, 3 September 2014 22:21:00 UTC