- From: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2014 14:13:41 -0800
- To: Karl Groves <kgroves@paciellogroup.com>
- CC: "Gunderson, Jon R" <jongund@illinois.edu>, "public-pfwg@w3.org" <public-pfwg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <54765095.5060607@oracle.com>
Karl,
I believe that it has been stated in the past that for security reasons
that information cannot be exposed with a JS interface.
Regards,
James
On 11/26/2014 2:08 PM, Karl Groves wrote:
> I believe the event information has usefulness beyond accessibility.
> The fact that existing monkey patches exist in tools like Firebug
> demonstrates this, as does the fact that the browsers have this in
> their own devtools. In this case all that would be needed is exposing
> that same information.
>
> On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:53 PM, James Nurthen
> <james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>> wrote:
>
> Karl,
> I believe retrieving the name and role are very useful. I have no
> issues with these.
> I believe retrieving whether a given element has certain event
> handlers on it is relatively useless as with event propagation in
> many frameworks determining if an individual element has an event
> handler is not useful.
>
> Regards,
> James
>
>
>
> On 11/26/2014 1:42 PM, Karl Groves wrote:
>>> What should web accessibility evaluation tools check?
>> Things that they can determine to close to 100% accuracy that
>> there is a real issue. False positives or warnings are a real
>> problem for both developers and testers.
>>
>>
>> (Apologies for broken quoting)
>>
>> The above isn't really relevant to the conversation at hand. Or,
>> maybe it is: The ability to natively retrieve an object's
>> computed role, state, value, and other information can (should?)
>> only lead to more accurate testing. Whether or not an automated
>> tool actually benefits from this information is up to them. Its
>> sort of a horse-to-water sort of thing. Just as the user of an an
>> assistive technology should be able to make certain assumptions
>> based on an element's role, a testing tool should be able to
>> apply specific checks to an object based on its role. Whether or
>> not the tool does so is up to the vendor. In other words, *not*
>> providing this information only hampers the ability of good tools
>> that can use it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 4:12 PM, James Nurthen
>> <james.nurthen@oracle.com <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 11/26/2014 11:38 AM, Gunderson, Jon R wrote:
>>> James,
>>>
>>> Sorry to keep bugging you about this topic, but I just want
>>> to make sure I fully understand what you are saying.
>>>
>>> When are web accessibility evaluation tools useful?
>> I'm not sure I need to answer this question. I'm not sure
>> what you are hoping to learn from asking it.
>>>
>>> What should web accessibility evaluation tools check?
>> Things that they can determine to close to 100% accuracy that
>> there is a real issue. False positives or warnings are a real
>> problem for both developers and testers.
>>
>> It is my contention that any checks which rely on getting
>> these UI behaviours will result in many more false positives
>> and manual checks and cannot ever result in the detection at
>> a level even approaching 100% reliability of any errors.
>> Therefore I do not see the value in adding it.
>>
>> Regards,
>> James
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jon
>>>
>>>
>>> From: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com
>>> <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>
>>> Organization: Oracle Corporation
>>> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 at 1:19 PM
>>> To: Jon Gunderson <jongund@illinois.edu
>>> <mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>>, "public-pfwg@w3.org
>>> <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>" <public-pfwg@w3.org
>>> <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
>>> Subject: Re: Element.getComputedRole() +
>>> Element.getUIBehaviors()
>>>
>>> Jon,
>>> Please see inline.
>>>
>>> On 11/26/2014 11:04 AM, Gunderson, Jon R wrote:
>>>> James,
>>>>
>>>> What if a development team does not understand they need to
>>>> support the keyboard or add ARIA roles to a widget they are
>>>> building accessible, you would rather an evaluation tools
>>>> be silent?
>>> If a team does not understand that everything needs to be
>>> keyboard accessible then I do not believe they will be
>>> running accessibility evaluation tools on their products.
>>>
>>> Every time new warnings or false positives are introduced it
>>> leads to at least 2 possible harmful scenarios.
>>> The first is that people ignore the warnings / false
>>> positives due to investigating one or 2, finding they are no
>>> issue and then assuming all the others follow the same pattern.
>>> The second is that they modify their code to make the
>>> warnings / false positives go away. When these modifications
>>> are not necessary this is either wasted developer time which
>>> could have been spent on other issues or, even worse, end up
>>> negatively affecting the accessibility of the product. In
>>> the example cited I would bet many developers would end up
>>> adding tabindex=0 and a role which would lead to decreased
>>> accessibility dues to an extra tab-stop for the redundant
>>> control.
>>>
>>> I don't see how adding something like this benefits anyone.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> James
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doesn’t this lead to people thinking or even claiming
>>>> accessibility when they are not?
>>>>
>>>> There are a lot of newbies out there who do not understand
>>>> ARIA technology and are creating very inaccessible web
>>>> resources.
>>>>
>>>> Jon
>>>>
>>>> From: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com
>>>> <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>
>>>> Organization: Oracle Corporation
>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 at 12:33 PM
>>>> To: "public-pfwg@w3.org <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>"
>>>> <public-pfwg@w3.org <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
>>>> Subject: Re: Element.getComputedRole() +
>>>> Element.getUIBehaviors()
>>>> Resent-From: "public-pfwg@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>" <public-pfwg@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
>>>> Resent-Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 at 12:34 PM
>>>>
>>>> Jon,
>>>> If this were to be keyboard focusable then I agree it would
>>>> need a role - but without a keyboard focus I think it is
>>>> more likely to be a secondary method of accomplishing a
>>>> task - and any tool that starts reporting things like this
>>>> is going to end up requiring users to perform so many
>>>> manual checks that they end up not doing them. We can
>>>> already determine if something can take a keyboard focus so
>>>> I believe we can already cover this where necessary.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/26/2014 10:10 AM, Gunderson, Jon R wrote:
>>>>> James,
>>>>>
>>>>> There are situations where event information will be more
>>>>> or less useful, but without some type of event information
>>>>> it is impossible through the standard DOM to identify
>>>>> elements that may need ARIA roles (I.e. <div
>>>>> onmousedown=“someEvent”).
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you agree with that?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com
>>>>> <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>
>>>>> Organization: Oracle Corporation
>>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 at 12:03 PM
>>>>> To: Jon Gunderson <jongund@illinois.edu
>>>>> <mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>>, "public-pfwg@w3.org
>>>>> <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>" <public-pfwg@w3.org
>>>>> <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Element.getComputedRole() +
>>>>> Element.getUIBehaviors()
>>>>>
>>>>> Jon,
>>>>> In many frameworks all of these events will be handled at
>>>>> the page level. I don't think you are going to get any
>>>>> useful information from these rules.
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> James
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/26/2014 9:58 AM, Gunderson, Jon R wrote:
>>>>>> James,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree, any accessibility rules related to events have
>>>>>> to take into account event bubbling.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are two main types of rules this type of function
>>>>>> supports:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. A element has some type of behavior that needs an
>>>>>> ARIA role, for example:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <div onClick=“submitForm”>Submit</div>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. An element has some ARIA widget role that requires
>>>>>> keyboard support, but there is no keyboard event handler
>>>>>> that the element can respond to, even when event bubbling
>>>>>> is taken into account.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com
>>>>>> <mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>
>>>>>> Organization: Oracle Corporation
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 at 11:45 AM
>>>>>> To: "public-pfwg@w3.org <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>"
>>>>>> <public-pfwg@w3.org <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Element.getComputedRole() +
>>>>>> Element.getUIBehaviors()
>>>>>> Resent-From: "public-pfwg@w3.org
>>>>>> <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>" <public-pfwg@w3.org
>>>>>> <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
>>>>>> Resent-Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2014 at 11:45 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/26/2014 9:41 AM, Dominic Mazzoni wrote:
>>>>>>> As before my main concern with this type of function is
>>>>>>> that it's impossible to implement correctly, and
>>>>>>> therefore it's quite misleading and of dubious value.
>>>>>>> Event delegation is an extremely common pattern in web
>>>>>>> apps, and there's no way to know whether an element is
>>>>>>> being listened to by an event handler on a different
>>>>>>> element or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Gunderson, Jon R
>>>>>>> <jongund@illinois.edu <mailto:jongund@illinois.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rich and Dominic,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you think about a element method called
>>>>>>> getUIBehavior()?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> interface Element : Node {
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Boolean getUIBehaviors(in DOMString name);
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DOMString values:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ‘click’ : Returns true if node has at least one event handler for the following events “onclick” or “ondbclick” events
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ‘keyboard’ : Returns true if node has at least one event handler for the following events “onKeyPress”, “onKeyDown or “onKeyUp” events
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ‘mouse’ : Returns true if node has at least one event handler for “onMouseXXX” events
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ‘change’ : Returns true if node has at “onChange” event
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “focus” : Returns true if node has at “onFocus” event
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “blur” : Returns true if node has at “onBlur” event
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “drag” :Returns true if node has at least one event handler for “onDragXXX” events
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “css” :Returns true if node has at least one event handler for “animationXXX” events or “transitionend” event
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Dominic Mazzoni <dmazzoni@google.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:dmazzoni@google.com>>
>>>>>>> Date: Thursday, October 16, 2014 at 3:51 PM
>>>>>>> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>>
>>>>>>> Cc: "public-pfwg@w3.org <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>"
>>>>>>> <public-pfwg@w3.org <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Element.getComputedRole()
>>>>>>> Resent-From: "public-pfwg@w3.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>" <public-pfwg@w3.org
>>>>>>> <mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
>>>>>>> Resent-Date: Thursday, October 16, 2014 at 3:52 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure, I think it's a good idea.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How about getComputedAccessibleText next?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In both Blink and WebKit I imagine we'll have to
>>>>>>> think about efficiency when implementing this -
>>>>>>> typically we enable accessibility lazily and then
>>>>>>> leave it on - at least for that page. We'd want to
>>>>>>> use the real accessibility code to compute this, but
>>>>>>> then disable accessibility support and clean up if
>>>>>>> it wasn't enabled previously.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 1:19 PM, Richard
>>>>>>> Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Dominic,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We have an issue to add a getComputedRole()
>>>>>>> function on Element. This would help
>>>>>>> application developers as well as accessibility
>>>>>>> test tools. Here is the issue:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/427
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would you support implementing this feature in
>>>>>>> Chrome?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rich
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Regards, James
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
>>>>>> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>>> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> |
>>>>>> Mobile: +1 415 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918>
>>>>>> Oracle Corporate Architecture
>>>>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
>>>>>> Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is
>>>>>> committed to developing practices and products that help
>>>>>> protect the environment
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards, James
>>>>>
>>>>> Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
>>>>> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
>>>>> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> |
>>>>> Mobile: +1 415 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918>
>>>>> Oracle Corporate Architecture
>>>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
>>>>> Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is
>>>>> committed to developing practices and products that help
>>>>> protect the environment
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards, James
>>>>
>>>> Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
>>>> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
>>>> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> |
>>>> Mobile: +1 415 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918>
>>>> Oracle Corporate Architecture
>>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
>>>> Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is
>>>> committed to developing practices and products that help
>>>> protect the environment
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards, James
>>>
>>> Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
>>> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
>>> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile:
>>> +1 415 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918>
>>> Oracle Corporate Architecture
>>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
>>> Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is
>>> committed to developing practices and products that help
>>> protect the environment
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards, James
>>
>> Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
>> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
>> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile:
>> +1 415 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918>
>> Oracle Corporate Architecture
>> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
>> Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is
>> committed to developing practices and products that help
>> protect the environment
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Karl Groves
>> Senior Technical Lead Accessibility Software Consultant &
>> Director of Training
>> The Paciello Group
>> @karlgroves
>> Phone: +1 443-875-7343 <tel:%2B1%20443-875-7343>
>
> --
> Regards, James
>
> Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
> James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
> Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1
> 415 987 1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918>
> Oracle Corporate Architecture
> 500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
> Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is
> committed to developing practices and products that help protect
> the environment
>
>
>
>
> --
> Karl Groves
> Senior Technical Lead Accessibility Software Consultant & Director of
> Training
> The Paciello Group
> @karlgroves
> Phone: +1 443-875-7343
--
Regards, James
Oracle <http://www.oracle.com>
James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
Phone: +1 650 506 6781 <tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987
1918 <tel:+1%20415%20987%201918>
Oracle Corporate Architecture
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood City, CA 94065
Green Oracle <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to
developing practices and products that help protect the environment
Received on Wednesday, 26 November 2014 22:14:19 UTC