RE: Do we need role application?

>For instance, my experiments with aria-labelledby on <span> without a role in IE yielded that Jaws 15 behaves differently dependent on the fact if role=application
>has been set or not. The relations are only spoken when role=application was set.

Granted, but I would say this is an author error, since anything that receives focus should have a dedicated role, whether native or explicit with a role attribute, so I wouldn’t expect anything that receives focus with no role at all to behave consistently regardless.


From: Schnabel, Stefan [mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:15 AM
To: James Craig; Matthew King
Cc: Bryan Garaventa; Cynthia Shelly; Steve Faulkner; Fred Esch; Joanmarie Diggs; White, Jason J; lisa.seeman; Marco Zehe; W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
Subject: RE: Do we need role application?

All,

All right. Sorry for having caused some confusion. Role application seems to remain here to stay.

Good, since we need that one really for the reasons Brian pointed out. We need something that signals AT to get out of the way if JS keyboard handlers for navigation are present.

I just want to point out the fact that it will be worth the effort to scrutinize how role=application is actually handled in all AT.

For instance, my experiments with aria-labelledby on <span> without a role in IE yielded that Jaws 15 behaves differently dependent on the fact if role=application has been set or not. The relations are only spoken when role=application was set.
This could be a bug, the problem is, nobody knows since behavior is not defined ☺

Best Regards
Stefan

From: James Craig [mailto:jcraig@apple.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 18. November 2014 03:07
To: Matthew King
Cc: Bryan Garaventa; Cynthia Shelly; Steve Faulkner; Fred Esch; Joanmarie Diggs; White, Jason J; lisa.seeman; Marco Zehe; W3C WAI Protocols & Formats; Schnabel, Stefan
Subject: Re: Do we need role application?

It would be news to me if we were planning to deprecate the application role in 1.1. We talked a little bit at TPAC about deprecating the ARIA drag/drop properties but decided they were harmless for the time being and it was not pressing for 1.1. I don't recall any discussion about the application role.

On Nov 17, 2014, at 4:26 PM, Matthew King <mattking@us.ibm.com<mailto:mattking@us.ibm.com>> wrote:

I changed the subject of this thread to the related topic that was raised.

We have had some discussion of depricating role application. I do not see an open issue. The only action related to role application does not have any description (1361 assigned to James Nurthen). The title of that action suggests that the description of the role needs to be re-written. So, if there is going to be a serious discussion of deprication for ARIA 1.1, than it appears we need an issue raised. I will take that as a to-do unless someone beats me to it.

Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
mattking@us.ibm.com<mailto:mattking@us.ibm.com>



From:        Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>>
To:        "Schnabel, Stefan" <stefan.schnabel@sap.com<mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com>>, Marco Zehe <mzehe@mozilla.com<mailto:mzehe@mozilla.com>>, "lisa.seeman" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com<mailto:lisa.seeman@zoho.com>>, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com<mailto:jcraig@apple.com>>,
Cc:        Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com<mailto:cyns@microsoft.com>>, "White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org<mailto:jjwhite@ets.org>>, Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, Matthew King/Fishkill/IBM@IBMUS, "Steve Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com<mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>>, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com<mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <public-pfwg@w3.org<mailto:public-pfwg@w3.org>>
Date:        11/12/2014 11:00 AM
Subject:        RE: First draft of ARIA 1.1. "text" role
________________________________



>but role=application will be likely deprecated in ARIA 1.1.

Sorry, this sort of jumped out at me. Is role=application supposed to be deprecated?

If yes, there needs to be something equivalent to allow for controls to have keystrokes directly passed through to the control that has focus, which is what role=application currently provides. Otherwise custom composite interactive controls that require the use of the arrow keys and other navigational keystrokes won’t work properly for screen reader users, because they will otherwise intercept these keys and not pass them through.


From: Schnabel, Stefan [mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2014 1:38 AM
To: Marco Zehe; lisa.seeman; James Craig
Cc: Cynthia Shelly; White, Jason J; Fred Esch; Matthew King; Steve Faulkner; Joanmarie Diggs; W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
Subject: RE: First draft of ARIA 1.1. "text" role

Hi Marco,

because (as I have written) from an implementers viewpoint, adding a “trigger“ or a member in the list of
roles where ARIA labelling has to be supported (which is what they actually do for some but not all roles) is maybe on a higher acceptance level.

However,

<span role=”application” aria-label=”Out of stock – That is  Critical” style=”color:red”>Out of Stock</span>

will work already, too, but role=application will be likely deprecated in ARIA 1.1.

Regarding your last post: Applause for the FF / NVDA support of this but I do not see any contradiction in emphasizing by role that something is more than just plain text.

Best Regards + Troll Greetings
Stefan


From: Marco Zehe [mailto:mzehe@mozilla.com]
Sent: Mittwoch, 12. November 2014 10:28
To: Schnabel, Stefan; lisa.seeman; James Craig
Cc: Cynthia Shelly; White, Jason J; Fred Esch; Matthew King; Steve Faulkner; Joanmarie Diggs; W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
Subject: Re: First draft of ARIA 1.1. "text" role

Hi Stefan,

OK, trolling back:
What makes you think they'll support role="text" if they don't get aria labelling right now?

Marco
On 12.11.2014 10:04, Schnabel, Stefan wrote:
Hi Marco,

I’m in the mood for some trolling since I don’t understand sometimes implementation logic behind.

Can you please go ahead and tell FS that they should support aria-label (or labelledby, describedby) e.g. in

<span aria-label=”Out of stock – That is  Critical” style=”color:red”>Out of Stock</span>

in ALL their modes (important!) according to the ARIA spec WITHOUT having a role applied on the span or on the body?

If they refuse, having

<span role=”text” aria-label=”Out of stock – That is  Critical” style=”color:red”>Out of Stock</span>

will make things clearer for the screen readers that there is more than just plain text .. namely ARIA-attributed text.

Best Regards
Stefan

From: Marco Zehe [mailto:mzehe@mozilla.com]
Sent: Mittwoch, 12. November 2014 09:24
To: lisa.seeman; James Craig
Cc: Cynthia Shelly; White, Jason J; Fred Esch; Matthew King; Steve Faulkner; Joanmarie Diggs; W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
Subject: Re: First draft of ARIA 1.1. "text" role

+1000 to that, Lisa! Given the history of the web, I think it is safe to assume that everything that is nothing else is text, and that text does not need its own role. None of the examples I have seen in this thread convinced me that this is either necessary nor in any way helpful.

Marco

On 12.11.2014 07:48, lisa.seeman wrote:
My 2 cents
Each new role we introduce will create a learning curve for authors, many of whom will initially apply it incorrectly, killing the user experience, until an accessibility consultant tells them how to use it correctly. (Assuming the consultant is not also using it inappropriately - this is not to be taken for a given.) I say this based on a lot of personal experience.

If we do not need a new role we should not create it.


All the best

Lisa Seeman

Athena ICT Accessibility Projects <http://accessibility.athena-ict.com/>
LinkedIn<http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter<https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>



---- On Wed, 12 Nov 2014 05:15:29 +0200 James Craig<jcraig@apple.com><mailto:jcraig@apple.com> wrote ----

> On Nov 11, 2014, at 5:41 PM, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com<mailto:cyns@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>
> I wonder if it might make more sense to change the definition of presentation or none to cover this scenario
>
> <p>I <img src="heart.gif" alt="love" role="none"> New York.</p>
>
> to read "I love New York" instead of "I New York"

As Matt alluded, the ARIA 1.0 "presentation" role ("none" is a 1.1 synonym role of "presentation") does not expose any attribute or role semantics, so this would not expose the text alternative.

> The glyph scenario is different, because it is text, and is often read as a single character.

I don't think it'd always be limited to a single character.

> But, do we need a role for that? Would this work instead?
>
> <p>I <span aria-label="love">♥</span> New York.</p>

The role of the span is ambiguous here. Some platforms don't expose the span at all, preferring to flatten the selection string, so there is no element on which to hang the label. (Though that might just be an implementation detail.)

James