$)CRE: First draft of ARIA 1.1. "text" role

$)CCynthia wrote:
> I wonder if it might make more sense to change the definition of 
> presentation or none to cover this scenario
> 
> <p>I <img src="heart.gif" alt="love" role="none"> New York.</p>
> 
> to read "I love New York" instead of "I New York"
> 
> I think I would achieve that by not creating an accessible api node 
> for the image, and just having a paragraph with text that reads "I 
> love New York"

Yes!! This is exactly what I was saying. I can hear some potentially 
arguing that might break some sites that were silly enough to label eye 
candy and then mark it with role presentation to make it disappear, 
relying on the 1.0 implementation. But that problem would eventually 
disappear and we would have a simpler, more consistent world in the end.

Cynthia continues:
> The glyph scenario is different, because it is text, and is often 
> read as a single character.  But, do we need a role for that?  Would
> this work instead?
> 
> <p>I <span aria-label="love">"></span> New York.</p>
> 
> Then, in the AAPI rendering, we would replace the "> with the string 
> "love".

I do not think we should replace the content of a span with a label. That 
is just as problematic as the text role. And, there is a general problem 
with labeling generic elements like div and span that essentially map to 
none. Screen readers and screen reader users really do not know what to do 
with such things.

What does it mean to label a purposeless container? For that matter, what 
does it mean to label a static text node like <p> or <li> ... it really 
does not make sense. People come up with examples all the time, but there 
is always a better way to structure the content so that the semantics are 
more clear.

Even though it is more markup, I think the 2nd example should be written 
as:

<p>I <span aria-hidden="true">"></span><span aria-hidden="false" 
style="display:none">love</span> New York.</p>

This is very explicit, and I think less dangerous.

Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement 
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
mattking@us.ibm.com

Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com> wrote on 11/11/2014 05:41:53 PM:

> From: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>
> To: "White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>, Fred Esch/Arlington/
> IBM@IBMUS, Matthew King/Fishkill/IBM@IBMUS, 
> Cc: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, James Craig 
> <jcraig@apple.com>, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>, W3C WAI 
> Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org>
> Date: 11/11/2014 05:42 PM
> Subject: RE: First draft of ARIA 1.1. "text" role
> 
> I wonder if it might make more sense to change the definition of 
> presentation or none to cover this scenario
> 
> <p>I <img src="heart.gif" alt="love" role="none"> New York.</p>
> 
> to read "I love New York" instead of "I New York"
> 
> I think I would achieve that by not creating an accessible api node 
> for the image, and just having a paragraph with text that reads "I 
> love New York"
> 
> The glyph scenario is different, because it is text, and is often 
> read as a single character.  But, do we need a role for that?  Would
> this work instead?
> 
> <p>I <span aria-label="love">"></span> New York.</p>
> 
> Then, in the AAPI rendering, we would replace the "> with the string 
> "love".  I'm not sure we need a role to do that.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: White, Jason J [mailto:jjwhite@ets.org] 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 1:53 PM
> To: Fred Esch; Matthew King
> Cc: Steve Faulkner; James Craig; Joanmarie Diggs; W3C WAI Protocols & 
Formats
> Subject: RE: First draft of ARIA 1.1. "text" role
> 
> 
> 
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
> >Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2014 4:45 PM
> >To: Matthew King
> >Cc: Steve Faulkner; James Craig; Joanmarie Diggs; W3C WAI Protocols & 
> >Formats
> >Subject: Re: First draft of ARIA 1.1. "text" role
> >
> >+1 to what Matt said.
> >This has more down side than up side. Authors will be confused by 
> >declaring text as text with a text alternative and/or aria-label.
> >Accessibility does not benefit from being this complex.
> >
> 
> To clarify my position, the use cases are real and important. 
> However, ARIA isn't the right means of addressing them, as it's too 
> broad - it works via the accessibility interfaces and does not 
> target, for example, speech output or braille output specifically or
> independently of one another.
> 
> 
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