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Re: DRAFT MINUTES: March 3, 2014 WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2014 12:07:02 -0800
Message-ID: <10D2038D36AA492E874565A93D32E409@WAMPAS>
To: "Gunderson, Jon R" <jongund@illinois.edu>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <public-pfwg@w3.org>
My apologies as well, I had a meeting conflict.

I wished to mention regarding 

>MK: I think for a screen reader, the way it is read is not difference, but the keyboard support

On the desktop, using JAWS and NVDA specifically, a grid has a specific interaction in Applications Mode, allowing the SR user to use the arrow keys when a grid has focus. When Applications Mode is disabled, then the standard table navigation commands can be used in the manner of a regular data table.

>From what I understand, a grid should have only one tab stop, and no other focusable elements should be present within the construct.

A table though could have any number of embedded active elements, since the basic active element model would apply.

Grid is being misused in many places in place of badly formed tables, so a table role is a great idea!




  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Gunderson, Jon R 
  To: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats 
  Sent: Monday, March 03, 2014 11:35 AM
  Subject: DRAFT MINUTES: March 3, 2014 WAI-PF ARIA Caucus


  Link:

   

  http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html

   



  - DRAFT -

  Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
  03 Mar 2014

  See also: IRC log

  Attendees

  Present

  Regrets

  Chair

  Rich

  Scribe

  jongund

  Contents

    a.. Topics
    b.. Summary of Action Items

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  <trackbot> Date: 03 March 2014

  <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

  <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Feb/0097.html

  <joanie> argh, too many meetings today.

  <joanie> please put me down as regrets

  <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Feb/0097.html

  RS: I did get your e-mail CS
  ... First thing is ARIA 1.0, anything we need to deal with?

  <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/pr-WAI-ARIA1-UAIG1/results

  JS: 27 responses

  Jania: That has been steady for a week

  MC: Move to March 18th, due to other announcements, any concerns?

  RS: I don't have any as long as it is for C-SUN
  ... Tuesday should be fine

  Janina: It might be a better date

  MC: Some of us will be traveling

  RS: I am glad you are taking one for the team

  MC: It affects Sean more than me
  ... We are good on the AC review, we might not require one, but we do have that one change

  Janina: The earlier time (a week from today) would be good

  MC: I have got nearly 2 weeks
  ... We are working on a press release, running it pass a couple people
  ... Later this week the advisory group will see it and they will invite members to submit teastimonials
  ... There is a call for teastimonials

  JS: I might alert some people here

  MC: I don't know if they can be non-members

  RS: Anything else we need to discuss?

  <richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Mar/0000.html

  RS: UAIG?
  ... What are you looking for?

  CS: Can we do it later on the agenda, I am still on the bus

  RS: We will try

  Janina: Next week we shift clocks next week, primarily effect Stephan, one hour earlier

  SS: Just next week?

  Janina: No it will be a until the next time change

  RS: If JC is not here I don't want to talk about role descriptions

  <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/3

  RS: There are two main issue

  <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/423

  RS: See links
  ... Table role looks pretty straight forward
  ... What do people think of a table role?
  ... Tables are not interactive, so can't be a grid
  ... I am not sure how this will work with SVG yet
  ... Discussion?

  MK: What are the down sides
  ... We already have roles like link that have strong semantics
  ... Is it a down side if people use ?

  JG: Some people are using non table markup for tables

  CS: Some people heard that tables are bad for accessibility and so got rid of all of them
  ... Some complex UI and they also have tables, and so they are just using DIV and SPAN
  ... There is a retro fitting that can be use TABLE role

  RS: We have to deal with all the other ..., anybody object to a table role?

  MK: We need to add the other parts THEAD....

  CS: We could be add column based tables

  SS: What can the new TABLE role do, that cannot be done with the GRID role?

  RS: A gird role is interactive
  ... You can use the keyboard and select multiple cells
  ... discussion of noise on teleconference...
  ... SS did I answer your question?

  SS: It is read only and no interaction?

  RS: Yes

  SS: It would be an authoring error if they were interactive

  RS: yes
  ... I don't hear any objections

  RESOLUTION: Adopt TABLE role in ARIA 1.1

  JS: I am on the cue
  ... That is not what the UAIG says currently

  RS: So we have a couple of questions here
  ... So we have a couple of resolutions here

  JS: Grid now is not a table

  <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-implementation/#mapping_role_table

  CS: UAIG a table is a kind of grid

  MK: The concept of a read only gird and a static table would need some refinement
  ... To me it is clear, but maybe you could select in a read only gird
  ... Is a table a kind of gird or is a gird a kind of a table ....

  CS: In UIA a table is a kind of grid

  RS: I think it is the other way around

  MK: Some grids are static and some are interactive and visa versa

  CS: Tables are about reading, and are different on a grid

  MK: I think for a screen reader, the way it is read is not difference, but the keyboard support

  CS: Not all screen readers have different modes

  MK: Not all keyboard users are screenreader users

  CS: If you click on a grid is indistinguishable from a table

  RS: I am pulling up the taxonomy
  ... Bringing up the SVG diagram

  <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-wai-aria-20140206/roles#grid

  RS: A grid a composite ....

  JS: It inherits from ....

  RS: We are going to have to change that

  MK: Why does it have to change? Put it untde structure

  CS: It doesn't matter

  <clown> s/It inherits from ../It inherits from composite and region. composite inherits from widget/

  RS: We have to model it some how

  CS: They are totally different

  MK: You don't want any inherited widget properties and states in a TABLE role

  RS: We want to inherit from document strucutre
  ... This is going to take more time than we have on the call
  ... Any objections to added new TABLE role?

  CS: TABLE role and necessary children

  RS: That is the next step

  <richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: Add new table role that will also feed grid in the taxonomy

  <richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig add Table role to taxonomy and ARIA 1.1 spec. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html#action01]

  <trackbot> Created ACTION-1395 - Add table role to taxonomy and aria 1.1 spec. [on James Craig - due 2014-03-10].

  RS: I though gird was in there for object attribute
  ... We need to go finer gain for gird
  ... We need to go finer gain for grid

  JS: Role description for AXAPI

  CS: Localized control type

  RS: It is UIA or UIA Express?

  CS: I need to figure out what to do with it
  ... Localized control type

  <richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: joseph modify UAIG to convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table. (atk/atspi/ IA2 xml-role=grid, MacOSX: roleDescription: grid, msaa/UIAExpress localizedControlType="grid"?) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html#action02]

  <trackbot> Created ACTION-1396 - Modify uaig to convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table. (atk/atspi/ ia2 xml-role=grid, macosx: roledescription: grid, msaa/uiaexpress localizedcontroltype="grid"?) [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2014-03-10].

  CS: I will figure out how

  RS: I think we got that
  ... That deals with table, we can close the issue?
  ... I will assign 1395 .....

  JS: It is assigned to JC
  ... Your going to link the issue to it

  RS: 423 is a bigger can of worms

  <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/3

  RS: Investigate full table support in non-HTML languages
  ... There is TFOOTER, ROWGROUP....

  CS: Can't that just be an action item?

  RS: Do we want these things to default to a group role?

  CS: Some of these needs roles

  RS: We don't need a THEAD since we have column header

  MK: They may actually have different semantics
  ... Can a COLHEADER be use in a TABLE

  JS: Are COLUMN Headers interactive?

  <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-wai-aria-20140206/roles#columnheader

  MK: They can be

  <clown> columnheader can be used as a column header in a table or grid

  JS: It does say the column header can be used for a grid or a table

  <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-wai-aria-20140206/roles#rowheader

  RS: Rows can also be used in a table, we don't need a new row role

  <clown> "Rowheader can be used as a row header in a table or grid"

  RS: Mapped to a column header is fine, the column headers may not be navigatable
  ... There is something we added at the end

  JS: row group
  ... row group got mapped by firefox to the ....

  MK: I have never seen anything take advantage of row group

  RS: Firefox provided something after our testing

  MK: It doesn't seem to even be in the accessibility API

  CS: I have seen it used in tables with a heading that goes across the whole table and there are several of these in the same table

  MK: Even then representing.... I don't know if the screen readers have a way of presenting that

  CS: In word you can navigate those kind of tables
  ... It is certainly a feature that could exist

  MK: Fair enough

  <clown> UIA Express: AriaRole="rowgroup", IA2: ROLE_SYSTEM_GROUP, ATK: ROLE_PANEL, AXAPI: not mapped.

  RS: So do we want to have TFOOTER, we could just have role GROUP?
  ... Do we want a footer?

  CS: This seems easier to do if someone just sat down and looked at these
  ... There are things better to do by committee and other by indivdiuals

  RS: Someone want to take an action item to look at: TFOOTER, ROWSPAN, COLSPAN

  JS: THEADER groups a whole bunch of rows

  <richardschwerdtfeger> tfooter, rowspan, colspan, tbody, thead,

  MK: I have never seen TFOOTER used

  JN: I have seen it used, but they don't do anything
  ... You can have one tbody and it would be perfectly valid?

  RS: Does someone what to take this action item?

  CS: I am not going to do it

  RS: JC has a lot of stuff on his plate

  Janina: Why is group is insufficient?

  JS: How about caption?

  RS: We could have a label role?

  MK: Do we need a label role, will it make label computation more complex

  CS: Using labelledby that can point a span or a div

  <richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jongund Create proposal to fill out ARIA Semantics (tooter, rowspan, colspan, thead, caption, etc.) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html#action03]

  <trackbot> Error finding 'jongund'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.

  jgunder

  <richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jongun Create proposal to fill out ARIA Semantics (tooter, rowspan, colspan, thead, caption, etc.) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html#action04]

  <trackbot> Error finding 'jongun'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.

  <scribe> ACTION: jgunder Create proposal to fill out ARIA Semantics (tooter, rowspan, colspan, thead, caption, etc.) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html#action05]

  <trackbot> Created ACTION-1397 - Create proposal to fill out aria semantics (tooter, rowspan, colspan, thead, caption, etc.) [on Jon Gunderson - due 2014-03-10].

  <richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jong Create proposal to fill out ARIA Semantics (tooter, rowspan, colspan, thead, caption, etc.) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html#action06]

  <trackbot> Error finding 'jong'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.

  <richardschwerdtfeger> jongund: will have proposal for next week

  RS: We have about 1/2 hour left, some thing less meaty

  CS: The UAIG discussion
  ... The HTML task force is not ready to refactor, they need more something...

  Janina: I think I was representing we were not ready

  <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to point out that grid is currently mapped to table role on all a11y platforms.

  RSL We have SF and AZ for the mapping guide

  RS: Not sure where jason is going to fit in, but we will make sure he gets in

  Janina: We will have a core and then additional documents, so we are not ready to recruit format he HTML task force
  ... Nothing is going to happen until after CSUN
  ... We have not agreed to have HTML own the document
  ... In the minutes it said these were going to be owned by HTML

  MC: Our current thinking is that we would like to own this, there is a history of HTML owning the mapping guide
  ... My expectations is that we don't know what refactoring process will produce

  CS: By becoming a module about 1/2 of it will be deleted

  <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to talk refactoring and timeline and to talk editors and to talk html ownership

  CS: I am trying to find out what the HTML working group thinks about it

  RS: We had a meeting of all the people who would work on it last year, that all been done
  ... For sure the HTML task force will be reviewing it and nobody will be left out
  ... We already have the people to work on it and agreed it
  ... The history of the HTML task force is not getting it done

  <richardschwerdtfeger> q/

  Janina: We need to run a cue

  CS: I am getting pressure from Paul for a plan

  Janina: Can you point him to the minutes of the meeting
  ... We are good on the big picture and need to get the specifics

  MC: Basically Janina said about half of what I was going to say, we need to get the module format defined
  ... We need to formalize the editors, we have the workers
  ... We need a way for these to all work together, potentially going to git hub
  ... Theses are details until I cannot work on until after CSUN

  <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to talk editors and to talk module specifics and to talk source formats

  Janina: I attend the working group meetings, in the 5.1 time frame we intend to get it done and may be even normative, there are clear principles
  ... Don't expect the details until 1.0 is done, and it is not done for MC
  ... MC will need to transform to a new format and repositories

  CS: We need a date on when we would start
  ... This is what Paul is looking for

  RS: The HTML5 spec is already on github, let the editors work this out, SVG is already tied into
  ... We are trying to get them all synched together for the 5.1 tim frame
  ... What is the process needed to put in place?

  <richardschwerdtfeger> ach richardschwerdtfeger

  MC: Answer the question or rune cue

  CS: The thing I am trying to avoid, make a bunch a decisions and have the HTML task force not like them
  ... ... not what the specific things are. Do it now and 5.0 is done and then have people trying to ....

  JS: What I am planning to do is use the current CVS repository to make a 1.1 with an eye for it to be the core

  <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to explain staff role vs editor role and to say +1 cs

  JS: The idea of moving them to github is problematic since the document sue XSLT and other technologies that are very specific

  MC: I agree with what JS abd CS said, there is nothing technical keeping us from gitbub
  ... My role is insuring the adherence to W3C processes and quality
  ... I see a need to part of the transition to new document formats, I want to have input on how they will affect quality
  ... It is not my goal to introduce bureaucracy, I just want to be part of the discussion
  ... Editing is taking on a specific set of requirements of the W3C, we work with them on what that role is
  ... The people you have named will be editors, but until we have the full discussion, we need to take the next step

  RS: We gathered the troops for HTML 5 and it didn't get done
  ... I am going on vacation after CSUN so this will delay work for over a month

  <janina> http://www.w3.org/2013/10/07-html-a11y-tf-workstatement.html

  Janina: It is not all up to me
  ... It charles and me and some other chairs have to agree, so before CSUN agreement would be optimistic
  ... I am concerned about scoping these documents

  RS: The user agent implementation guide and significant changes

  JS: Having tests made the biggest changes to the documents

  CS: Steve and Alec ....
  ... There are two documents UAIG and HTML API mapping

  RS: There is also one for SVG

  CS: It doesn't exist yet
  ... The current work can continue and we can work on getting the working groups to coordinate, these can do this in parallel

  Janina: I am concerned about moving anything to another working group, i don't expect the SVG document needs feedback HTML or vis-versa
  ... At best they need to be jointly owned, a common editor will help coordinate the documents

  CS: The refactoring ...

  Janina: We need to have the discussion here

  CS: People who come here and at the task force and other people
  ... All of those people need to be a part of proposing it

  <Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to ask who the proposed editors are now.

  JS: Who are the proposed editors, list of editors....

  Janina: We need to formalize the editors, working group chairs decide
  ... 1.0 is history, just because you were an editor on 1.0, doesn't mean you will be an editor on 1.1

  RS: Can we discuss this on Wednesday

  CS: I am just looking for a date, like the end of April

  RS: I am not happy with that

  Summary of Action Items

  [NEW] ACTION: jcraig add Table role to taxonomy and ARIA 1.1 spec. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html#action01]
  [NEW] ACTION: jgunder Create proposal to fill out ARIA Semantics (tooter, rowspan, colspan, thead, caption, etc.) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html#action05]
  [NEW] ACTION: jong Create proposal to fill out ARIA Semantics (tooter, rowspan, colspan, thead, caption, etc.) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html#action06]
  [NEW] ACTION: jongun Create proposal to fill out ARIA Semantics (tooter, rowspan, colspan, thead, caption, etc.) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html#action04]
  [NEW] ACTION: jongund Create proposal to fill out ARIA Semantics (tooter, rowspan, colspan, thead, caption, etc.) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html#action03]
  [NEW] ACTION: joseph modify UAIG to convey grid role in accessibility mappings, beyond table. (atk/atspi/ IA2 xml-role=grid, MacOSX: roleDescription: grid, msaa/UIAExpress localizedControlType="grid"?) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/03/03-aria-minutes.html#action02]
   
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