- From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2014 14:01:25 +0100
- To: Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>
- Cc: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>, PF <public-pfwg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CA+ri+V=Uurka0xmsdSH+9_z3fPBgzNXG3TFxycwuDAo=1OX-hg@mail.gmail.com>
bug filed https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/details/893109/limited-support-for-aria-labelledby-and-aria-describedby-in-ie -- Regards SteveF HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> On 9 June 2014 22:27, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote: > >Please resubmit the bug. A lot has changed since 2010. > > will do, am just finishing off some updates tests for the issue. > > -- > > Regards > > SteveF > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> > > > On 9 June 2014 22:24, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com> wrote: > >> Please resubmit the bug. A lot has changed since 2010. >> >> >> >> *From:* Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com] >> *Sent:* Monday, June 9, 2014 2:13 PM >> >> *To:* 'Steve Faulkner' >> *Cc:* 'PF' >> *Subject:* RE: Microsoft IE bug regarding aria-describedby and the >> accessibility tree Description property >> >> >> >> Thanks, that is really bizarre. >> >> >> >> According to the link referenced: >> >> >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms528445(v=VS.85).aspx#acc_elements >> >> >> >> Accessible elements include only the following: >> >> >> >> · a >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535173(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · applet >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535183(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · area >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535185(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · body >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535205(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · button >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535211(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · document >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms531073(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · embed >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535245(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · frame >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535250(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · frameSet >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535251(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · iframe >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535258(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · img >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535259(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · input >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535260(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · marquee >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535851(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · object >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535859(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · select >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535893(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · table >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535901(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · td >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535903(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · textArea >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535904(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · TextRange >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535872(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · th >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535908(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · window >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535873(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> >> >> Then the following is stated: >> >> >> >> The following elements are nonaccessible: >> >> >> >> · b >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535189(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · div >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535240(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · i >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535257(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · span >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535895(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · u >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms535913(v=vs.85).aspx> >> >> · Any custom elements that are not part of the HTML standard. >> >> >> >> The only thing that defines what is meant by an element that is ‘not >> accessible’, is this at the beginning: >> >> >> >> Some HTML elements—images, text, and links—are accessible, and some are >> not. Each accessible element (tag) in an HTML document is represented in >> the document's accessibility hierarchy. For more information about the >> accessibility hierarchy, see About Active Accessibility Support >> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms528415(v=vs.85).aspx>. >> >> >> >> Does anybody know what is meant by an element not being accessible? This >> is confusing me because it doesn’t appear to be a matter of active versus >> non-active elements, since TABLE, TD, and THs are supported, but other >> static element container types are not. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com >> <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>] >> *Sent:* Monday, June 09, 2014 9:06 AM >> *To:* Bryan Garaventa >> *Cc:* PF >> *Subject:* Re: Microsoft IE bug regarding aria-describedby and the >> accessibility tree Description property >> >> >> >> FYI this is the response i received from microsoft on the bug I filed >> about this issue back in 2010: >> >> As we evaluated this bug report and the repro page, we found that the >> test cases failed because of three different issues: >> >> 1. When presented with multiple labeledby and describedBy elements IE >> did not concatenate the values from those elements into the MSAA name or >> description. >> >> 2. When an element contained a native accessibility attribute (title >> or alt) the aria-labeledBy and describedBy attributes did not take >> precedence over the native attributes. >> >> 3. The value of the elements pointed at by the aria-labeledby and >> describedby is only available to the accessibility properties if the >> elements themselves are accessible objects. Not all IE elements are >> accessible objects as is described here: >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms528445(v=VS.85).aspx#acc_elements >> (*Note - I have asked Cullen to check this documentation as I’m not sure >> how accurate it is but it was the best I could find. It doesn’t mention >> that adding an aria-role to an element also makes it accessible.) >> >> >> >> We fixed the first two issues. IE9 will now concatenate the value of >> multiple labeledby/describedby elements and use labeledby/described by to >> trump native accessibility attributes if the labeledby/describedby elements >> are accessible objects. The list of elements which are automatically >> accessible objects is here: >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms528445(v=VS.85).aspx#acc_elements >> and you can easily make any other element an accessible object by adding a >> tabindex or an aria role to it. >> >> >> >> While we investigated fixes for the third issue, it will not be resolved >> in IE9. However, we will revisit this in the future. Since the test page >> requires all three issues to be fixed, you won’t see the expected behavior >> on that page. The workaround is to add a role=’tooltip’ attribute on >> elements l1, l2, l3, d1 and d2 on the test page then you will see all the >> tests working. >> >> Regards, The Microsoft Connect Team. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Regards >> >> SteveF >> >> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> >> >> >> >> On 7 June 2014 18:51, Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com> >> wrote: >> >> Steve Faulkner wrote: >> >> "it’s an implementation detail and authoring issue, suggest filing bugs >> against the ARIA implementation guide and authoring practices docs." >> >> >> >> Are you saying that the spec text should be changed for both >> aria-labelledby and aria-describedby? >> >> >> >> E.G >> >> >> >> 'Authors MUST include tabindex="-1" on any container referenced by >> aria-describedby.' >> >> >> >> Just because it doesn't work in Internet Explorer? >> >> >> >> >> The aria implementation guide does not make normative requirements on >> authors, neither does the authoring practices guide. So no. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >How would developers ever know this is required for one browser but not >> others? >> >> "by telling them" >> >> >> >> Every time a developer follows the current ARIA spec as they have already >> been doing for years? >> >> >> >> >And why should there be a difference? >> >> "it’s a limitation of IE's implementation." >> >> >> >> I agree, which suggests that this is an IE bug and not an ARIA spec bug. >> >> >> >> As I stated previously this is not a bug in the ARIA specification >> itself. And yes its a bug in IE that Microsoft has stated they can't/won't >> fix. That's why I have been telling people how to work around it. I also >> believe if there are long standing bugs in implementations or lack of >> implementation of specified features that it is useful for specs to provide >> information about them, so authors are made aware. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't know why it was ignored previously, but I don't see that as a >> reason to stop pursuing it. >> >> >> >> nobody said stop pursuing it, but until it is fixed it is useful >> information for authors to be aware of. >> >> >> >> >> >> One thing that has come up many times recently in the PF calls, is that >> it would be great to get ATs to use the accessibility tree and not rely so >> heavily on the DOM as screen readers like JAWS does currently. >> >> >> >> I can but only agree. >> >> >> >> If secret caveats like this exist, where the accessibility tree only >> works properly in one browser if you add something that isn't in the ARIA >> spec, which you would only know about if somebody told you, I don't see why >> AT venders would want to use the accessibility tree, because it won't be >> reliable across browsers. >> >> >> >> caveats will always exist unfortunately >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com] >> *Sent:* Saturday, June 07, 2014 12:50 AM >> >> >> *To:* Bryan Garaventa >> *Cc:* PF >> *Subject:* Re: Microsoft IE bug regarding aria-describedby and the >> accessibility tree Description property >> >> >> >> >> >> On 6 June 2014 18:44, Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com> >> wrote: >> >> Interesting, there is no mention of this in the spec… >> >> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-describedby >> >> >> >> its an implementation detail and authoring issue, suggest filing bugs >> against the ARIA implementation guide and authoring practices docs. >> >> >> >> How would developers ever know this is required for one browser but not >> others? >> >> >> >> by telling them >> >> >> >> And why should there be a difference? >> >> >> >> its a limitation of IE's implementation. >> >> >> >> I first reported this back in 2010 >> >> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2010Jul/0003.html. At >> the time microsoft wontfixed, then decided to fix, but constrained by the >> limitation I described. >> >> >> >> Unfortunately the related IE bug [1] is no longer available to view. In >> it microsoft responded with pretty much the information I provided about >> the need to use tabindex=-1 etc >> >> >> >> >> >> [1] https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/details/555280/ie-platform-preview-does-not-support-multiple-values-in-aria-labelledby-and-does-not-support-aria-describedby >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Regards >> >> SteveF >> >> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> >> >> >> > >
Received on Tuesday, 10 June 2014 13:02:37 UTC