minutes: June 9, 2014 WAI PF ARIA Caucus from Matthew King on 2014-06-09 (public-pfwg@w3.org from June 2014)

From: Matthew King <mattking@us.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 11:33:33 -0700
To: WAI Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <OF7F2F1798.ABC72173-ON88257CF2.0065B809-88257CF2.0065F492@us.ibm.com>
Draft minutes are posted at the following URL and follow my signature in 
plain text.

http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html


Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement 
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
mattking@us.ibm.com
W3C <http://www.w3.org/>


  - DRAFT -


  Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
  09 Jun 2014

See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-irc>


    Attendees

Present
    +1.603.882.aaaa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, jcraig, Joseph_Scheuhammer,
    +1.541.678.aabb, Matt, Cynthia_Shelly, James_Nurthen
Regrets
Chair
    Rich
Scribe
    Matt


    Contents

  * Topics <#agenda>
     1. ARIA 1.1 draft of document status <#item01>
     2. Implementation guide <#item02>
  * Summary of Action Items <#ActionSummary>

------------------------------------------------------------------------

<trackbot> Date: 09 June 2014

<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

<richardschwerdtfeger>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jun/0035.html

<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jun/0035.html>

<clown> richardschwerdtfeger: the history of changes to the spec:
https://github.com/w3c/aria/commits/June_2014_TR/spec


<richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Matt

<richardschwerdtfeger>
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/June_2014_TR/spec/aria.html



      ARIA 1.1 draft of document status

RS: posinset and setsize for tabs should be called out since people have
been asking

<richardschwerdtfeger> RS: in the Status of This Document

JC: Alex has brought concerns with describedat; concerns I share. So I
added editorial note to that section.

<clown> just in case it's relevant, the change log for the spec:
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/June_2014_TR/spec/aria.html#changelog

<http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/June_2014_TR/spec/aria.html#changelog>

<jcraig>
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-describedat

<http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-describedat>

<jcraig> Req of concern: User agents should provide a device-independent
mechanism to allow a user to navigate the user agent to content
referenced by the @aria-describedat attribute. User agents should also
provide a device-independent mechanism to return the user's focus from
the descriptive content view to the original content view. For example,
a user agent may provide access to the document or document fragment
referenced by the the @aria-describedat attribute in a

<jcraig> contextual menu associated with the object.

<jcraig> JC 2014-06-03. The previous paragraph may be at-risk.
Implementors from Mozilla, Google, and Apple have expressed concern over
the RFC-2119 "should" requirement above: If the statement remains as-is,
@aria-describedat would break the ARIA pattern to not affect mainstream
UI. Dominic M. mentioned that if this patterned changed, developers may
become more "suspicious of ARIA and not want to apply simple
accessibility bug fixes without worrying about the implications

<jcraig> for their design." Alex S. said, UI-based requirements "should
be rather part of HTML than ARIA."

JC: Concern is that the is the first ARIA requirement that modifies user
experience.

RS: this is a should, not a must.

JC: It is a concern if it is a should. we could change it to a MAY.

CS: I agree this is a first for ARIA; I believe it is a good change.
... Perhaps it should even be a MUST.

RS: Cynthia, can you get input from the IE team.

JC: We have no plans to implement the UI piece of this in webkit.

CS: I would like to add some other content to the editorial note that
reflects other views.

RS: I see this as very likely showing up in some epub readers.

<richardschwerdtfeger> RS: seeing the Tie between Readium, IDPF, and the
Diagram project

JC: With SVG, we can now imbed accessible descriptions both in vector
and raster images and make them directly accessible without longdesc or
describedat.

CS: I will give content to James today to put in the note.

<richardschwerdtfeger> *ACTION:* Cynthia Get feedback on use of ARIA to
drive UI changes in the browser as a “SHOULD” from the IE team [recorded
in http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1451 - Get feedback on use of aria to drive ui
changes in the browser as a “should” from the ie team [on Cynthia Shelly
- due 2014-06-16].

<jcraig> action-1451:
http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-describedat

<http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/spec/aria.html#aria-describedat>

<trackbot> Notes added to action-1451 Get feedback on use of aria to
drive ui changes in the browser as a “should” from the ie team.


      Implementation guide

Joseph: aaria-checked removed from option; now there is some pushback
and I didn't make the change to the guide
... so now guide and mapping may be out of sync
... this is for situations where selections and checked are orthoganal

BG: there is a windows component on msdn where for checkable listbox

<bgaraventa1979> Win UI equiv
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.windows.forms.checkedlistbox(v=vs.110).aspx
<
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.windows.forms.checkedlistbox(v=vs.110).aspx
>

Joanie: If there is nothing definitely prohibiting selection and check
from being separate, then we would need to support it. Even if it is not
good design.

<joanie>
http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm

<
http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm

>

Discussion of JQS UI

<jamesn>
http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm

<
http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm

>

<joanie>
http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm

<
http://www.jqwidgets.com/jquery-widgets-demo/demos/jqxlistbox/index.htm#demos/jqxlistbox/checkboxes.htm

>

RS: We are still looking for use cases where check and selection are
independent and have spearate meanings.

MK: There could be use cases where checking refers to something like
setting a preference and selection is selection for an operation.

JC: That could be done with a grid where the element that controls
selection is separate.
... we can use checked on menuitemradio

RS: this change is not for menuitems
... Is it for treeitem?

JC: treeitem is really no different from option.

RS: we might break some things in trees; need to investigate.

CS: What is motiviation for change?

JC: For validation to avoid using the wrong state. Checked and selected
are not equivalent and an autor error can make things not work correctly.
... one example is radio buttons

RS: Is it removed from implementation guide?

Joseph: it is still in. I was prepared to remove but have not done it.
... Alex plans to ignore aria-checked on option.

JC: WebKit does as well.

<bgaraventa1979> +q

JC: aria-checked was in the list of supported states for option because
of inheritence but it didn't carry any meaning in so is ignored.

BG: what about partially checked

CS: this is common in setup for windows programs

<jcraig> screen shot
http://i.msdn.microsoft.com/ff956194.Waldman_Figure1_hires(en-us

<http://i.msdn.microsoft.com/ff956194.Waldman_Figure1_hires(en-us

>,MSDN.10).jpg

<jcraig> mixed: http://i.technet.microsoft.com/dynimg/IC562743.png


<joanie> http://csharp.net-informations.com/gui/cs-checkedlistbox.htm


Joanie: this example with days of the week has some partially checked
items in a listbox
... Tuesday is partially checked.

JC: propose that we remove selected from radio and checkbox but leave
checked on option

<jcraig> add checked back to option, which will inherit to treeitem

<jcraig> leave radio and checkbox unchanged in the spec (no longer has
aria-selected in aria 1.1)

*RESOLUTION: in spec, restore aria-checked to option role. In
implementation guide, remove optional mapping of aria-selected from
radio and menuitemradio.*

<jcraig> *ACTION:* jcraig to add aria-checked back to option, and let it
inherit to treeitem [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1452 - Add aria-checked back to option, and
let it inherit to treeitem [on James Craig - due 2014-06-16].

<joanie> :)

<clown>
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=202

<
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testresults?testsuite_id=1&testcase_id=202

>

<jcraig> *ACTION:* joseph to remove optional text about mapping
aria-checked on checkbox/radio [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1453 - Remove optional text about mapping
aria-checked on checkbox/radio [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2014-06-16].

<jcraig> action-1452? action-1453?

<jcraig> action-1452?

<trackbot> action-1452 -- James Craig to Add aria-checked back to
option, and let it inherit to treeitem -- due 2014-06-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1452


<jcraig> action-1453?

<trackbot> action-1453 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Remove optional text
about mapping aria-checked on checkbox/radio -- due 2014-06-16 -- OPEN

<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1453


<joanie> jcraig: link please?

<clown> #aapi

<joanie> It's jcraig's birthday? Happy Birthday!!

zakim bye

<jcraig> happy belated to james n, too


    Summary of Action Items

*[NEW]* *ACTION:* Cynthia Get feedback on use of ARIA to drive UI
changes in the browser as a “SHOULD” from the IE team [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html#action01]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jcraig to add aria-checked back to option, and let it
inherit to treeitem [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html#action02]
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* joseph to remove optional text about mapping
aria-checked on checkbox/radio [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2014/06/09-aria-minutes.html#action03]
 
[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2014-06-09 18:28:50 $

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Default Present: +1.603.882.aaaa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, jcraig, 
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Found Date: 09 Jun 2014
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Received on Monday, 9 June 2014 18:34:12 UTC