Re: minutes: Jan 13, 2014 WAI PF ARIA Caucus

Is there a reason why these minutes are member only? wanted to point to
them in regards to closing a HTML bug, but not a lot of help if they can't
be viewed by HTML wg members.

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>


On 13 January 2014 16:36, Matthew King <mattking@us.ibm.com> wrote:

> Draft minutes are posted at the following URL and follow my signature in
> plain text.
>
> https://www.w3.org/2014/01/13-pf-minutes.html
>
> Matt King
> IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
> I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
> IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement
> Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
> mattking@us.ibm.com
>
> W3C <http://www.w3.org/>
>
>
>   - DRAFT -
>
>
>   Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
>   13 Jan 2014
>
> Agenda <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jan/0006.html>
>
> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2014/01/13-pf-irc>
>
>
>     Attendees
>
> Present
>     joanie, [Mozilla], WuWei, [IPcaller], Jon_Gunderson,
>     Joseph_Scheuhammer, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Michael_Cooper, Matt_King,
>     janina, marks
> Regrets
>     Stefan_Schnabel
> Chair
>     Rich
> Scribe
>     mattking
>
>
>     Contents
>
>   * Topics <#agenda>
>      1. HTML 5 defects <#item01>
>      2. 23380 <#item02>
>      3. other html 5 discussion <#item03>
>      4. aria 1.0 CR actions and issues <#item04>
>   * Summary of Action Items <#ActionSummary>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> <trackbot> Date: 13 January 2014
>
> <richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
>
> <richardschwerdtfeger> be there shortly
>
> <clown> :-)
>
> <scribe> scribe: mattking
>
>
>       HTML 5 defects
>
> <janina> UAIG exclusion (RAND) closed 4 January
>
> <richardschwerdtfeger>
> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574
>
> RS: should there be a week mapping between hidden and aria-hidden
>
> <clown> <div hidden aria-hidden="false">This content is available to
> ATs</div>
>
> RS: That is, should hidden content be available in the accessibility tree
> in
>
> <SteveF> other related bug
> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23371
>
> RS: conversely, should aria-hidden without hidden attribute keep content
> out of accessibility tree
> ... Microsoft and Apple support weak mapping.
>
> <clown> s/week mappting/weak mapping/
>
> RS: If content is hidden and author puts ari-hidden=false, should the
> content be exposed to the AT?
>
> David: We have more questions than opinions at this point. If we had
> very complete spec, we could have more informed opinion.
>
> <SteveF> aria-hidden=false ONLY overrides if set on SAME element as
> hidden or css display:none
>
> David: Would keyboard behavior be effected?
>
> RS: No, if content is not visible then you can not keyboard operate it.
>
> Joseph: what if you had a button, wouldn' you be able to see the button
> in the AT and operate it?
>
> Steve: Yes, it would be consistent with off-screen methods.
> ... old off screen methods do allow you to click or keyboard operate off
> screen content
> ... the use case is not for hiding interactive content
>
> RS: html5 guide with mappings is not normative yet.
>
> <SteveF> current UA support for aria-hidden/hidden
> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/hidden2013.html
>
> <janina> UAIG 1.0 implementations call expires Friday 17 January per:
>
> <janina>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2013Dec/0028.html
> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2013Dec/0028.html>
>
> JC: If we do not change aria-hidden to a week mapping to html hidden,
> then aria-hidden=true does not have any meaning.
>
> David: should we compare to aria-disabled?
>
> RS: aria can not change the functionality of the browser
>
> <clown> <input disabled aria-disabled="false"> ?
>
> JC: IMO, aria-disabled and aria-required could have strong mappings to
> html 5 disabled and required
>
> <richardschwerdtfeger>
> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574
>
> RS: today, ff already has a week mapping in the case when content is
> visible and aria-hidden is true. The content is visible in accessibility
> tree and the aria-hidden true is exposed as an object attribute
>
> Joseph: haven't these always had a weak mapping?
>
> JC: It was more like half strong and half week depending the value (true
> or false)
>
> <SteveF> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/hidden2013.html
>
> Steve: All screen readers except Orca hide content where
> aria-hidden=true even if the content is visually rendered
>
> <joanie> so to finish what I was going to say
>
> <joanie> Orca + WebKit doesn't present aria-hidden:true
>
> <joanie> because webkit doesn't expose it to orca
>
> <joanie> if an AT is not supposed to present something, do not expose it
> to the AT :)
>
> RS: so we have the week mapping for aria-hidden=true. Now we need
> agreement on aria-hidden=false.
>
> <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to state that @hidden doesn't even have a
> strong mapping to visible display (CSS cascade makes it easy to
> accidentally show).
>
> RS: asking Alex and David: Do you support using aria-hidden=false to
> expose visually hidden content to assistive technology?
>
> <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to state that @hidden doesn't even have a
> strong mapping to visible display (CSS cascade makes it easy to
> accidentally show "hidden" elements). <div hidden
>
> <jcraig> [hidden] { display:none; }
>
> <davidb> (there is no "important!")
>
> JC: Currently it is possible for CSS to override html5 hidden so a
> strong mapping with aria-hidden could cause visible content to not be
> available in accessibility tree when it should be.
>
> David: I think we are conditionally on board. We have concerns about
> inheritance and other possible special conditions.
>
> <richardschwerdtfeger>
> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18574
>
> Steve: can you comment on what you would like to see documented in the bug?
>
> <davidb> there is also
> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23371
>
> RS: David, can you update bug so we have a record of Mozilla agreement?
>
> David: yes
>
> <davidb> (we should reach out to google as well)
>
> Janina: html5 down to about 10 bugs and we have this one open. We don't
> want accessibility holding up html5.
>
> Steve: Google is currently supporting the week mapping in android 31.
>
> RESOLUTION bug 18574: solution is accepted to make semantics week and
> Alex will update bug.
>
> Steve: bug 23371 is the same as 18574 so I have made 23371 blocked. so
> we do not need separate discussion.
>
>
>       23380
>
> <clown> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23380
>
> <richardschwerdtfeger>
> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=23380
>
> <SteveF>
>
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/dom.html#sec-strong-native-semantics
> <
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/dom.html#sec-strong-native-semantics
> >
>
> <clown> <input disabled aria-disaled="false">
>
> <clown> ?
>
> Review of strong mappings.
>
> <clown> <input aria-disabled="true">
>
> Joseph: autocomplete should be in this table.
>
> Steve: aria-disabled=true on an html5 element that is not disable
>
> RS: html5 wins so that is an author error
>
> Steve: this bug can be closed because no changes are required in the
> mappings.
> ... is that the case? Any objections to closing the bug?
>
> *RESOLUTION: close bug 23380*
>
> <SteveF>
>
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/grouping-content.html#the-p-element
> <
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/grouping-content.html#the-p-element
> >
>
>
>       other html 5 discussion
>
> <SteveF>
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/dom.html#allowed-aria-roles
> <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/dom.html#allowed-aria-roles
> >,-states-and-properties
>
> Steve: I am adding allowed aria roles, states, and properties to each
> html element.
>
> RS: html 5 or 5.1?
>
> Steve: no normative changes; all informative.
> ... so it could be either html5 or 5.1.
> ... I am asking for others to review to ehlp us ensure there are not
> issues with the mappings.
>
> <SteveF>
>
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-article-element
> <
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/sections.html#the-article-element
> >
>
> Steve: this can raise other typs of mapping issues that should be
> reviewed. For example, what should be allowed on BR.
>
> JC: and this could be added to validator
>
>
>       aria 1.0 CR actions and issues
>
> <richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/1
>
> RS: Michael any progress.
>
> Michael: not last; will happen this week.
>
> RS: new comments?
>
> Michael: none new.
>
> RS: meeting next week?
>
> general agreement, yes.
>
> discussion of next week's agenda
>
> Priority should be 1.0.
>
> <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/meetings/2014-01-ftf#agenda
>
>
>     Summary of Action Items
>
> [End of minutes]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl
> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> version
> 1.138 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>)
> $Date: 2014-01-13 16:32:19 $
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>     Scribe.perl diagnostic output
>
> [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
>
> This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138  of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11
> Check for newer version at
> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
>
> Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
>
> FAILED: s/week mappting/weak mapping/
> Succeeded: s/week mapping/weak mapping/
> Succeeded: s/aria-disabled/IMO, aria-disabled/
> Succeeded: s/these always had a strong mapping/these always had a weak
> mapping/
> Found Scribe: mattking
> Inferring ScribeNick: mattking
> Default Present: joanie, [Mozilla], WuWei, [IPcaller], Jon_Gunderson,
> Joseph_Scheuhammer, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Michael_Cooper, Matt_King, janina,
> marks
> Present: joanie [Mozilla] WuWei [IPcaller] Jon_Gunderson
> Joseph_Scheuhammer Rich_Schwerdtfeger Michael_Cooper Matt_King janina marks
> Regrets: Stefan_Schnabel
> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Jan/0006.html
> Found Date: 13 Jan 2014
> Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/01/13-pf-minutes.html
> People with action items:
>
> WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
> You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.
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> [End of scribe.perl
> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm>
> diagnostic output]