Minutes for ARIA Teleconference 24 Feb 2014

Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference 24 Feb 2014 Minutes:
http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html

Raw IRC Log:
http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-irc

- DRAFT -

Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
24 Feb 2014

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Rich_Schwerdtfeger, +1.512.659.aaaa, joanie, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Nurthen, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper, Jon_Gunderson, jcraig, Stefan_Schnabel, Janina_Sajka, Susann_Keohane
Regrets
Matt_King
Chair
Rich
Scribe
jcraig
Contents

Topics
Rec Status
ARIA 1.1 aria-hint/desc/tooltip/help
Summary of Action Items
<trackbot> Date: 24 February 2014
<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus
<clown> \o/
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Feb/0071.html
<clown> #aapi
<clown> richardschwerdtfeger: ^
<clown> 78&*&!!!!&!
<scribe> scribe: jcraig
Rec Status

RS: 26 member votes in support
... Working on Mozilla
MC: Judy wants more support from Accessibility orgs that are Members
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/pr-WAI-ARIA1-UAIG1/results
RS: Results for Membership voting for ARIA Rec status: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/pr-WAI-ARIA1-UAIG1/results
... Anything else needed for Rec status?
MC: Need to formally approve the RDF comment from Ivan
<MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/comments/details?comment_id=449
MC: Do we want to use IRI as he suggested or URI as rest of document?
Quoting: What you really want to say, I guess, is that the value is an IRI or a blank node (ie, not a literal). Your current specification, actually, does not refer to a blank node, so I guess it becomes very simple: the value of that property is an IRI. That is it. (And it is in line with the fact that all those properties are defined as object properties in the RDF vocabulary file. I realize you refer to URI-s and not IRI-s in the spec. I do not know if it is an
issue if you exchange that to IRI; if it is, you can probably ignore it and use URI-s.
JS: Just talking about RDF, but the change to IRI may affect more.
<clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-wai-aria-20140206/roles#requiredState
<clown> It's used in "Supported States and Properties" section.
MC: Term URI only used in RDF ref, so probably not problematic to change it to IRI.
... Used in 6 places
... IRI is the international version that includes use of non-ASCII chars
<scribe> ACTION: Cooper to change URI to IRI and add reference to IRI docs/spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1388 - Change uri to iri and add reference to iri docs/spec [on Michael Cooper - due 2014-03-03].
RESOLUTION: Cooper to change URI to IRI and add reference to IRI docs/spec
... Accept Ivan's comment and make appropriate changes.
ACTION-1388?
<trackbot> ACTION-1388 -- Michael Cooper to Change uri to iri and add reference to iri docs/spec -- due 2014-03-03 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1388
(discussing editorial spec issues)
RS: Judy wants testimonials from people for CSUN timeframe
MC: Yes, we need to finish drafting the press release that the testimonials will be included in.
... Likely, end of week.
ARIA 1.1 aria-hint/desc/tooltip/help

<clown> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Feb/0076.html
ISSUE-406?
<trackbot> ISSUE-406 -- Proposal for new aria-hint/help/tooltip property. (Previously proposed as @aria-help) -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/406
<clown> <span role="button" aria-label="Back" aria-describedby="desc1"
<clown> aria-tooltip="Go back one page; pull down to show history">
<clown> ...
<clown> <span id="desc1">Activate to go back one page, or invoke a history
<clown> menu.</span>
<clown> or, rather:
<clown> <span role="button" aria-label="Back" aria-describedby="desc1"
<clown> aria-hint="Go back one page; pull down to show history">
<clown> ...
<clown> <span id="desc1">Activate to go back one page, or invoke a history
<clown> menu.</span>
Clown: How does description fit into APIs
CS: AccDescription is outdated and deprecated, we're trying to move away from it. So I'd like to rework ARIA's reliance on "descriptions"
RS: I think "describedby" should override hints to be consistent with aria-labelledby overriding aria-label?
CS: I'd rather add a new API property to support description properly
RS: ??? We can't suggest UAs render an ARIA based tooltip?
<jamesn> We should look at all the text properties we associate with text fields, for example, and come up with an overall strategy rather than just tacking extra things on
Issue-406?
<trackbot> Issue-406 -- Proposal for new aria-hint/help/tooltip property. (Previously proposed as @aria-help) -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/406
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/406
SS: describedby gives more info about context or describes what is on screen, but hint provides instructions for controls
<clown> +1
RS: Like the name aria-hint?
+1
<joanie_> +1 for hint
<richardschwerdtfeger> +1
<Stefan> +1
<jongund> 1+
SS: I think we should suggest UAs expose ARIA values in the mainstream user interface
CS: We (Microsoft) want ARIA to change browser behavior, too.
(can't understand Stefan)
<richardschwerdtfeger> ach richardschwerdtfeger
SS: I think it should be part of UAIG 1.1 to require UAs expose certain ARIA properties in mainstream user agents
(uses @longdesc in Firefox context menu as a success story)
<scribe> ACTION: Cynthia to gather more information about secondary information (desc, tooltip, etc) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1389 - Gather more information about secondary information (desc, tooltip, etc) [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2014-03-03].
ack ri?
<Zakim> Joseph_Scheuhammer, you wanted to say that developers generally like the fact that aria doesn't change behaviour.
Clown: Haven't made up my mind about whether ARIA should change default behavior. We recommend devs use ARIA and they think it requires major changes and UI diffs
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say that should be in the HTML ARIA mapping spec
<clown> sribenick: clown
<clown> scribenick: clown
Clown: And web developers express their relie when we tell them that aria doesn't change behaviour of UAs.
<jamesn> +1 to the retrofit case
Clown: so, we should tread carefully here in terms of adding behaviour for aria.
<scribe> scribenick: jcraig
SS: I think it shouldn't be directly exposed, but maybe through a keyboard shortcut?
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig to add aria-hint to ARIA 1.1 as related to issue 406 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html#action03]
CS: retrofit use case is one use, but there is a new dev use case, too. I think we should discuss exposing some ARIA attrs natively in ARIA 2.0 though, not 1.1
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1390 - Add aria-hint to aria 1.1 as related to issue 406 [on James Craig - due 2014-03-03].
action-1390?
<trackbot> action-1390 -- James Craig to Add aria-hint to aria 1.1 as related to issue 406 -- due 2014-03-03 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1390
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/435
issue-435?
<trackbot> issue-435 -- Consider role="text" to expose elements (and contents) as static text node -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/435
<jamesn> +1 to staticText
text is static by default
<clown> <span role="statictext" ...
<clown> <button role="text">Go</button>
SS: Would role="text" remove basic functionality like click and focus?
JC: No, ARIA role does not remove functionality, and we can make it an author error to use this on certain interactive controls.
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig add role="text" to the ARIA 1.1 spec referencing issue-435 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1391 - Add role="text" to the aria 1.1 spec referencing issue-435 [on James Craig - due 2014-03-03].
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/446
issue-446?
<trackbot> issue-446 -- proposing new switch role (subclass of checkbox) that represents an on/off state -- open
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/446
<clown> for the record: IA2 has IA2_ROLE_TOGGLE_BUTTON, and ATK has ROLE_TOGGLE_BUTTON
ss: like the idea because this accurately describes the interface. for collaboration reasons, it's difficult for sighted users to to collaborate with blind users if they are describing different controls
RS: Any opposition to switch role?
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig add a switch role to ARIA 1.1 in response to issue-446 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1392 - Add a switch role to aria 1.1 in response to issue-446 [on James Craig - due 2014-03-03].
action-1391?
<trackbot> action-1391 -- James Craig to Add role="text" to the aria 1.1 spec referencing issue-435 -- due 2014-03-03 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1391
action-1392?
<trackbot> action-1392 -- James Craig to Add a switch role to aria 1.1 in response to issue-446 -- due 2014-03-03 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1392
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/579
<clown> scribenick: clown
JN: While I don't think it's global, it should be extended to other roles.
<jcraig> issue-579?
<trackbot> issue-579 -- Allow aria-orientation as a global property -- raised
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/579
RS: examples?
JN: Org charts
... They are tree widgets, but on their side.
... So up and down now map to left and right.
... Tabs can also be vertical. And so can a toolbar.
RS: I'm going to bring up the widgets.
JN: Those examples are in the issue.
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#widget_roles
JN: There may be other use cases.
CS: I wouldn't want it global, but extending to more widgets would be useful.
JN: I think it's the composite widgets that are more likely.
note: toolbar isn't a composite....
RS: List box?
JN: I don't think so.
JC: There are lists of drives that are horizontal during an install.
... <other examples>
RS: <lists other widgets>
JC: Would this apply to pivot tables as well?
JN: I think we need another property there, and another discussion.
JC: Okay.
RS: Toolbar is another candidate.
CS: I don't think any of the landmarks or document structure.
JC: We have a default value of horizontal for aria-orientation.
... Makes sense for most of the controls we currently use it on. E.g. sliders.
... If we extend the application, we should make the default 'undefined'.
CS: Can we have different default values for each control?
JC: We can. Menus are vertical in most cases.
... But we shouldn't make a default that is inherited.
CS: Can we separate the inherited from the default for the role?
JC: Yes.
RS: Do you have enough from the minutes to enumerate the roles.
JC: I thought you were writing that list down.
RS: I can do that right now.
<richardschwerdtfeger> New Roles to apply aria-orientation: combo box, listbox, menu, menubar, radio group, tablist, tree, tree grid, toolbar
Clown: What about a table of contents/
RS: no such role.
Clown: that is "navigation".
CS: wouldn't that be a toolbar in the navigation.
JC: It doesn't have to have a toolbar.
... combo box default verical?
... listbox vertical
RS: radio group undefined
<jcraig> combobox (vertical)
<jcraig> listbox (vertical)
<jcraig> menu (vertical)
<jcraig> menubar (horizontal)
<jcraig> radio group (undefined)
<jcraig> tablist (horizontal)
<jcraig> tree (vertical)
<jcraig> tree grid (undefined)
<jcraig> toolbar (horizontal)
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig add aria-orientation to additional ARIA roles per 2-24-14 ARIA Caucus wrt. Issue-579 [recorded inhttp://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-1393 - Add aria-orientation to additional aria roles per 2-24-14 aria caucus wrt. issue-579 [on James Craig - due 2014-03-03].
<jcraig> ACTION-1393?
<trackbot> ACTION-1393 -- James Craig to Add aria-orientation to additional aria roles per 2-24-14 aria caucus wrt. issue-579 -- due 2014-03-03 -- OPEN
<trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1393
<jcraig> scribe+ clown
Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Cooper to change URI to IRI and add reference to IRI docs/spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Cynthia to gather more information about secondary information (desc, tooltip, etc) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: jcraig add a switch role to ARIA 1.1 in response to issue-446 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: jcraig add aria-orientation to additional ARIA roles per 2-24-14 ARIA Caucus wrt. Issue-579 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: jcraig add role="text" to the ARIA 1.1 spec referencing issue-435 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: jcraig to add aria-hint to ARIA 1.1 as related to issue 406 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-aria-minutes.html#action03]