W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-pfwg@w3.org > December 2014

Re: @aria-describedat at-risk in ARIA 1.1 heartbeat draft

From: Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:00:44 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+epNscwUW8ZxqfemBC+5hTwxjQLyGAQAFHgs7SW3SS=rRRj4A@mail.gmail.com>
To: John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>
Cc: Dominic Mazzoni <dmazzoni@google.com>, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>, WAI XTech <wai-xtech@w3.org>, "Michael[tm] Smith" <mike@w3.org>, Daniel Weck <daniel.weck@gmail.com>, "Ted O'Connor" <eoconnor@apple.com>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <public-pfwg@w3.org>
That's where we disagree I think. If a feature in HTML doesn't exist in
other host languages but still useful there then imo it doesn't mean that
ARIA should host it. I don't have a nice solution though, I think the
solution will be feature dependent. Maybe we should start a new spec for
accessibility features and not only for stuff like universal longdesc that
will define semantics, UI and probably behavior. Maybe IndieUI is something
we should look at.
Thanks.
Alex.

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 10:43 AM, John Foliot <john@foliot.ca> wrote:

> (Adding Public PF to the cc list per Rich's request)
>
>
>
> Alex,
>
>
>
> This then brings us to the crux of the problem: if we have an
> accessibility feature in HTML that does not exist in other host languages,
> is it reasonable to suggest that we ensure that feature can be implemented
> via ARIA?
>
>
>
> In more specific terms (and I already know the counter-arguments from
> Apple) if @longdesc is deemed a useful and needed accessibility feature,
> and we have existing content creators requesting this functionality, then
> why would we not want to have an ARIA equivalent? I read nothing in the
> draft spec that suggests that browsers need to support aria-describedat in
> any fashion differently than the current support for @longdesc, of which
> Mozilla is already doing a better job than some other browsers (with the
> current native support via context menu).
>
>
>
> I'll also note that it is worth mentioning that one of the requirements
> for @longdesc was that there be no mandated visual encumbrance, so the
> desire to not have a mandated impact on the GUI is already well understood
> and respected. I see no conflict here.
>
>
>
> (I will however continue to suggest that the end user SHOULD have the
> ability to apply a visual hint when either @longdesc or @aria-describedat
> is used, as users should always have the final say on how they get their
> content delivered to them. I have stated on numerous occasions that I
> believe this should be a Settings preference switch)
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Surkov [mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 10, 2014 10:24 AM
> *To:* John Foliot
> *Cc:* Dominic Mazzoni; James Craig; WAI XTech; Michael[tm] Smith; Daniel
> Weck; Ted O'Connor
>
> *Subject:* Re: @aria-describedat at-risk in ARIA 1.1 heartbeat draft
>
>
>
> Hi, John. I don't. I think ARIA can be useful in any HTML-like
> environment, if you create custom controls in SVG then ARIA is perfect for
> that.
>
> Thanks.
> Alex.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 10:16 AM, John Foliot <john@foliot.ca> wrote:
>
> Hi Alex,
>
>
>
> Once again, I ask you, do you believe that ARIA is for HTML only? Does the
> language-agnostic part of ARIA no longer apply?
>
>
>
> I totally support using Native semantics (etc.) over ARIA supplied
> whenever possible, but when the host language lacks a feature required for
> a11y, then I maintain we should be able to provide it via ARIA.
>
>
>
> If this is an incorrect understanding of the role of ARIA within the
> larger eco-system, then I think it requires further clarification, as the
> resources I have previously referenced seem (to me) to back up my
> understanding.
>
>
>
> Cheers!
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> *From:* Alexander Surkov [mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 10, 2014 10:11 AM
> *To:* Alexander Surkov; Dominic Mazzoni; John Foliot; James Craig; WAI
> XTech; Michael[tm] Smith; Daniel Weck; Ted O'Connor
> *Subject:* Re: @aria-describedat at-risk in ARIA 1.1 heartbeat draft
>
>
>
> Hi, Janina. I don't have clear use case of the universal longdesc in my
> mind so I'm not sure where the feature should be. If it's supposed to be
> used on HTML elements then HTML spec should be a right place to host it.
>
>
>
> In general I just don't support the idea to let ARIA to have UI dressing
> since it's all about semantics and I wouldn't want to change that.
>
> Thanks.
> Alex.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
>
> Do I understand that you correctly?
>
> If our intent is a general feature for the whole world, than you say
> "Put it in HTML?"
>
> If our intent is a feature for accessibility, would you say "ARIA is
> OK?"
>
> Is this correct? Is this your view?
>
> Just walking througha  clarification here ...
>
> Janina
>
>
> Alexander Surkov writes:
> > It looks like I should comment too. I think that if aria-describedat is a
> > nice feature for any element and all users can benefit of it then it
> should
> > be part of HTML5 spec.
> > Thanks.
> > Alex.
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Dominic Mazzoni <dmazzoni@google.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:04 AM, John Foliot <john@foliot.ca> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I think as well that your characterization of "dissent" w.r.t. Gecko
> and
> > >> Blink
> > >> is, shall I say, somewhat exaggerated, but (again) I think we should
> ask
> > >> these
> > >> actors directly, and neither you nor I assume anything.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Just to be clear, then, I officially object/dissent to the language
> "User
> > > agents should provide a device-independent mechanism to allow a user
> to..."
> > > used anywhere in the ARIA spec, because I feel the user agent directly
> > > providing to all users a user-level feature based on an ARIA attribute
> is a
> > > radical departure from the rest of the ARIA spec.
> > >
> > > Resolutions I would be happy with include:
> > > * Change the language so that aria-describedat is mapped to native
> > > accessibility APIs only, like the rest of ARIA
> > > * Or, make it part of HTML5 and take ARIA out of the name
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka,   Phone:  +1.443.300.2200
>                         sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
>                 Email:  janina@rednote.net
>
> Linux Foundation Fellow
> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:       http://a11y.org
>
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Chair,  Protocols & Formats     http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
>         Indie UI                        http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Wednesday, 10 December 2014 19:01:13 UTC

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