Re: Question about a menubutton with a default action

That's my gutt feeling, too. I just tried a split button in the sorting
columns thingie in the Windows 7 explorer, and speech is sparse, to say the
least. Sub menu opening and closing is not spoken correctly, keyboard
handling is erratic... I hope I can convince my colleagues to change to the
alternative Matt suggested.

Marco



On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 3:32 AM, Bryan Garaventa <
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:

>  Personally, I’d recommend the same as Matt.
>
>
>
> The problem with the split button functionality, is that it’s not
> intuitive and there is no indication to the user how it is supposed to
> work. Case in point, I’ve been using Win7 for a couple of years now and
> have shut down my computer thousands of times in that time, but never knew
> this dual functionality existed till you mentioned how to use it.
>
>
>
> *From:* Marco Zehe [mailto:marco.zehe@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, August 08, 2014 10:57 PM
>
> *To:* Bryan Garaventa
> *Cc:* James Craig; W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
> *Subject:* Re: Question about a menubutton with a default action
>
>
>
> Sorry about that! ;) Any suggestions on how to proceed? Should I just see
> that we expose this as a split button somehow, and count on users to know
> how to interact, or should I try and push for a change to what Matt
> suggested? I personally would feel better with the latter, but am not sure
> how hard this fight might become. Moreover, there is no ARIA role for split
> buttons AFAIK. At least I didn't find one. And in Windows 8.1, this thing
> is no longer a split button, it has no role whatsoever, but acts like a
> normal menu button.
>
> Suggestions still welcome!
>
> Marco
>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 9, 2014 at 7:48 AM, Bryan Garaventa <
> bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:
>
>  Ah, I see what you mean, I just shut down my computer twice by accident
> trying to test this thing using Space and Enter…
>
>
>
> It’s not the Down arrow that opens the popup menu items, but Right arrow,
> which makes it act like a submenu of a parent menu item.
>
>
>
> I guess it’s theoretically possible to do this using ARIA on a menu item,
> if a proper description is added, but this would only work within a menu,
> and not on a standalone button, because the modes of navigation are totally
> different.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Marco Zehe [mailto:marco.zehe@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, August 08, 2014 10:29 PM
> *To:* Bryan Garaventa
> *Cc:* James Craig; W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Question about a menubutton with a default action
>
>
>
> Hi Bryan,
>
> no, he is referring to the split button that is in the start menu. In
> fact, another colleague chimed in that this control is meant to be a clone
> of Microsoft's split button rather than menu button. He also quotes
> (although without an actual reference) that Microsoft suggest Space to
> perform the default action, and DownArrow to open a menu of the default +
> other options. The access key should open the menu, with the default option
> highlighted.
>
> I just checked, and WAI-ARIA doesn't mention split buttons at all, neither
> in the spec nor in the authoring practices.
>
> Marco
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 9:18 PM, Bryan Garaventa <
> bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:
>
>  Is he referring to the dialog that pops up if you press Alt+F4 when the
> desktop has focus?
>
>
>
> This is a “combo box” in the Accessibility Tree, not a button.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Marco Zehe [mailto:marco.zehe@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, August 08, 2014 12:09 PM
> *To:* James Craig
> *Cc:* Bryan Garaventa; W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
> *Subject:* Re: Question about a menubutton with a default action
>
>
>
> Hi Matt, Birkir, and Bryan,
>
> any thoughts on the example one of our developers gives in comment 24
> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=653226#c24> of the relevant
> Mozilla bug? Namely the example that aaparently stood model for our
> interaction: the Windows 7 shutdown button menu thingie on the Start panel.
>
> Windows 8.1 no longer has that, it's a regular menu button there that
> opens on press of the Space bar.
>
> Marco
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 7:41 PM, James Craig <jcraig@apple.com> wrote:
>
>  I was going to echo Matt's sentiment here. These are two controls, a
> button and a second popup button that launches a menu (aka menu button).
> When each is focused, Spacebar or Return should activate either. When the
> menu is launched, focus should move into the menu and arrow keys should
> manipulate the selected menu item.
>
>
>
> As for the authoring guide:
>
>      ·
>
>     - With focus on the button and the drop-down menu open, pressing Down
>       Arrow will move focus into the menu onto the first menu item.
>
>
>
> That needs to say "selected menu item or first menu item."
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Aug 8, 2014, at 10:24 AM, Marco Zehe <marco.zehe@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Bryan, I totally second your view that Space should open the menu as well.
> It always drives me nuts if a menu button does not do it, like some on
> FaceBook, for example. The ones on Google like in Gmail don't require me to
> switch out of virtual mode to get them popped up, on FaceBook, they do.
>
> I would, therefore, second a change to the authoring guide to this effect.
> Strongly! :)
>
> Marco
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 7:15 PM, Bryan Garaventa <
> bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com> wrote:
>
>  Regarding the use of the Down arrow to trigger a menu, I believe this
> exposes an issue in the ARIA authoring guide at
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#menubutton
>
>
>
> Where it states:
>
>
>
> Keyboard Interaction:
>
>    - Space or Enter - With focus on the button pressing Space or Enter
>    will toggle the display of the drop-down menu. Focus remains on the button.
>    - Down Arrow -
>       - With focus on the button and no drop-down menu displayed,
>       pressing Down Arrow will open the drop-down menu and move focus
>       into the menu and onto the first menu item.
>       - With focus on the button and the drop-down menu open, pressing Down
>       Arrow will move focus into the menu onto the first menu item.
>    - Up and Down Arrow - With focus on the drop-down menu, the Up and Down
>    Arrow keys move focus within the menu items, "wrapping" at the top and
>    bottom.
>    - Escape - With focus on the drop-down menu, pressing Escape closes
>    the menu and returns focus to the button.
>    - Tab -
>       - With focus on the button pressing the Tab key will take the user
>       to the next tab focusable item on the page.
>       - With focus on the drop-down menu, pressing the Tab key will take
>       the user to the next tab focusable item on the page. Note that this may be
>       difficult to achieve on a web page.
>    - Typing a letter (printable character) key moves focus to the next
>    instance of a visible node whose title begins with that printable letter.
>
>
>
> If focus remains on the button when the Enter or Space key is pressed,
> there is no indication that a menu has opened for an AT user, which is why
> setting focus to the first menu item works best for invoking the correct
> navigational mode as well as for indicating that an action has occurred.
> Also, the paradigm for invoking a menu on the platform always moves focus
> into a menu, so that the arrow keys can be immediately used for navigation.
>
>
>
> Additionally, if the Down arrow is used to invoke a menu, it doesn’t
> account for ATs like screen readers that use virtual offscreen models such
> as JAWS and NVDA, where the Down arrow moves to the next line in the
> virtual buffer, and is never passed through to the button.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Marco Zehe [mailto:marco.zehe@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, August 08, 2014 3:58 AM
>
>
> *To:* W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
>
> *Subject:* Question about a menubutton with a default action
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi there!
>
> I need some advice here... You know in Firefox, we have these doorhangers
> that pop up when, for example, a site asks you if you want to save a
> password. The button to save the password is actually a menu button with a
> default action, and a downward pointing arrow to open a menu of more
> options. That menu doesn't currently contain the default action. So the
> mouse interaction is: Click on the left side, e. g. the button label,
> performs the default action of saving the password. Clicking on the downard
> pointing arrow will open the popup menu.
>
> The current keyboard interaction is buggy at best. The access key doesn't
> work correctly, and the button has two tab stops, one for the menu button
> piece, one for the default action.
>
> Now, I've read up on the default expected behavior for menubuttons
> <http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#menubutton>, but these don't
> cover the case of a menu button that also has a default action. Nor is
> there a different role available in IA2 or other platform APIs that I know
> of that would cover this scenario in a way that the end user immediately
> knows what's going on.
>
> My first reaction to the question of how this interaction should be, was
> this:
>
>    1. Pressing the access key should focus the menubutton, but not
>    activate anything.
>    2. Space should activate the default action.
>    3. Down Arrow should open the menu.
>
> The problem here is that current best practices suggest that both space
> and down arrow pop up the menu. And there is no good way to actually tell
> the user that space would, in this case, do the default action and set
> focus back on the page afterwards.
>
> Any ideas or suggestion on how to best solve this would be appreciated. We
> could do an ARIA description for this particular button that tells the
> users on focus that space will submit the default action, and down arrow
> opens the menu for more options. But the best way would be if we had a best
> practices guide somewhere that would include this special scenario, or
> settle on a good way forward for these in general.
>
> Welcoming your comments!
>
> Marco
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Indifference towards people and the reality in
>
> which they live is actually the one and only
>
> cardinal sin in design. — Dieter Rams
>
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