- From: Matthew Atkinson <matkinson@tpgi.com>
- Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2022 16:17:53 +0000
- To: Lionel Wolberger <lionel@userway.org>, public-personalization-tf <public-personalization-tf@w3.org>
- CC: Sharon D Snider <snidersd@us.ibm.com>, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
Hi all,
Minutes can be found at https://www.w3.org/2022/03/07-personalization-minutes.html and are repeated below in text form.
Best regards,
Matthew
– DRAFT –
Personalization Task Force and EOWG
07 March 2022
[2]IRC log.
[2] https://www.w3.org/2022/03/07-personalization-irc
Attendees
Present
Brent, BrianE, CarlosD, CharlesL, Estella, janina,
kevin, krisanne, LauraK, Lionel_Wolberger, lisas,
MarkPalmer, Matthew_Atkinson, mike_beganyi, Roy, sharon,
shawn, Sylvie
Regrets
-
Chair
Lionel
Scribe
janina, Matthew_Atkinson, Matthew_Atkinson:
Contents
Meeting minutes
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: First, should we meet next
week (some of us are out at CSUN)?
<Matthew_Atkinson> janina: Suggest skipping. I will follow up
with i18n re #144.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: Anyone against skipping?
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: On main discussion.
Refernce GitHub thread: [3]https://github.com/w3c/
wai-personalization-standards/issues/7
[3] https://github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/7
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: The first module is called
Personalization Semantics Content Module 1.0
<CharlesL> [4]https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/
content/index.html
[4] https://w3c.github.io/personalization-semantics/content/index.html
<Matthew_Atkinson> janina: Think we're coming up with a name
for the series. Currently we have only one module on the way to
CR, but we anticipate a series.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: The work is exciting and
ambitious. Started off with the intent of being in ARIA. Lisa
is here and would like to hear from her on how this work got
started.
<Matthew_Atkinson> lisas: Started with the Semantic Web
Accessibility Platform, an RDF layer on top of content that
enabled it to be more easily manipulated. Was also trying to
solve the problem for JavaScript. Worked with Rich (IBM) and
Aaron (Google). JavaScript and Cognitive accessibility were
both big problems.
<Matthew_Atkinson> lisas: We decided to work first on the
JavaScript side of things, and with a focus on accessibility
for blind people. The approach went in the direction of mapping
properties to OS accessibility APIs. Adding additional
markup/semantics for what elements mean didn't fit in with this
approach.
<Matthew_Atkinson> lisas: Work along those lines was drafted in
COGA, then moved around, including to ARIA and here in APA.
<Matthew_Atkinson> lisas: Realised we needed a prefix [for our
attributes], we had 'coga' at one point, but wanted to open
this up to as many people as possible, and went for 'aui'
(possibly relating to automation). But current approach for now
is using data-* attributes. We need to decide on a prefix for
final implementation.
<Matthew_Atkinson> janina: This relates to the markup, though
we are looking for what we would call all three of the modules.
One suggestion was 'Personalizable Adaptations: <module name>
Module'. We also previously had 'Personalized Adaptations:'. We
are really looking for what's to the left of the colon.
<Matthew_Atkinson> janina: Authoring/tooling can handle
whatever the prefix is decided/has to be. We're looking for a
brand that can be used for all our modules.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: Important to frame the
deep impact that we feel that adding semantics at the element
level will have (ACK John Foliot for this phrase which sums up
the fundamentals of what we're doing).
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: Our goal is to provide
cognitive aids, or context, in many ways, many that we haven't
thought of yet. e.g. elements coudl be decorated with symbols
that explain their purpose/meaning.
<Matthew_Atkinson> lisas: Words that have come across included:
adpative, semantics. A really important one is 'inclusive' -
we're allowing people who were completely excluded to be part
of the mix.
<Matthew_Atkinson> lisas: In some cases, it's a significant
improvement for a wide range of people. Other use cases are
giving people a voice that they've never had (people using
specific AAC symbol sets, e.g.) This can really change these
groups' life experience. Someone who's had a brain
injury/stroke, and can't use words. What we're giving them is
the web, even if the language centers in their brain have been
affected.
<shawn> From Jade "either we use this chance to come up with an
acronym which has real meaning, and this is an advantage.
Otherwise whatever we come up with runs the risk of having an
acronym forced on it, so people will just turn it into an
acronym if it's a long phrase (and it might end up being a bad
one!)" <[5]https://github.com/w3c/
wai-personalization-standards/issues/7#issuecomment-1044543895>
[5] https://github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/7#issuecomment-1044543895
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about html and acronyms. and
asks a pause for people to read about audience [6]https://
github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/
7#issuecomment-1060720793
[6] https://github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/7#issuecomment-1060720793
<Matthew_Atkinson> shawn: Highlight from the GH thread. If we
don't provide an acronym, people will make up their own.
<Matthew_Atkinson> shawn: Is there going to be a prefix in
HTML, like ARIA?
<Matthew_Atkinson> janina: Yes. Will ask WHATWG for a prefix
after CR. We're using data-* for now.
<Matthew_Atkinson> shawn: So does it make sense to have an
acronym for what we are going to call this?
<Matthew_Atkinson> janina: That may be hard, not sure where
there is a complete list of prefixes.
<Matthew_Atkinson> janina: Also not sure that it really
matters, as this isn't going to be evident to users.
<Matthew_Atkinson> CharlesL: Even ARIA has 'role' as well as
the 'aria-*' attributes.
<Matthew_Atkinson> shawn: If I'm a new coder, though, and I see
the prefix, I'm going to search for it in my browser. So not an
absolute requirement, but coudl be valuable.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: [Summarizing from GH]
Noting the point that we're not trying to play the acronym
game, but it could be helpful to have a good one.
<Matthew_Atkinson> CharlesL: MathML Refresh WG has an attibute
up and coming that allows the author to specify the intent of
an equation (as the same equation may have different meanings).
<Matthew_Atkinson> Question about audience: [7]https://
github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/
7#issuecomment-1060720793
[7] https://github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/7#issuecomment-1060720793
Matthew_Atkinson: Post linked above asks who's this named for?
Qui bono?
Matthew_Atkinson: suggests they may help us narrow down
Matthew_Atkinson: Recalls EO call conversation that we may want
to avoid referring to a natural acronym, so as not to just
devolve into qan acronym, but a nice acronym will make an easy
handle
Matthew_Atkinson: Hope was to make the meaning behind the
acronym more understandable
Matthew_Atkinson: I'd love it if the prefix matched, but it
shouldn't be a showstopper
<Matthew_Atkinson> kevin: I wonder if an acronym is necessary?
If we're trying to convey some of the meaning of what the spec
is for/does, then we could use a short word to refer to
whatever's on the left of the colon (the parent name for the
modules) and avoid tying ourselves in knots trying to come up
with acronyms.
<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to ask if we really need an acronym?
<shawn> [ shawn notes if have only one or two words, then less
likely that people will make an acronym ]
<Matthew_Atkinson> kevin: The idea of finding an acroynm that
matches a word... could be useful, but if the acronym you're
trying to work to behind the scenes doesn't work then it isn't
helpful. If the acronym itself doesn't mean anything, then it's
not useful.
<kevin> +1 to Shawn's thought
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: I found that, when
evangelizing Personalization, just saying 'Personalization'
didn't help. Why is this? People tend to equate it with
'identiy' or a persona.
<janina> Wikipedia defines Personalization: [8]https://
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personalization
[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personalization
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: But 'personal' is also
powerful because it's your personal choices and, as lisas said,
it's about what _you_ need. Could be situational disability or
barrier (e.g. migraine).
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: The UA is there to give
you agency and help you access the web. That's the
device/entity that understands you.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: E.g. it will convey all
kinds of things, incl dark/light mode etc.
<Matthew_Atkinson> ... and perhaps should do more.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Brent: I don't have research on this, but if
you have something that's three words or longer, no matter what
those words are, people will try to use the words in an
acronym, becuase they won't want to say all three words. I like
what kevin was saying, if we could pick up on one or two words,
then it may be shorter to say that/those than the acronym.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Brent: So if we're chosing something that's
longer than two words, we need to wisely, something that can be
proncounced as an acronym, and understood.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Brent: I like 'adaptable', 'personalizable',
'content' (which lead me to the last comment in the GH issue -
[9]https://github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/
7#issuecomment-1060776142 at the time of scribing).
[9] https://github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/7#issuecomment-1060776142
<Matthew_Atkinson> lisas: When I described this to Francis West
[spelling? -scribe], she said 'You can tailor it to billions of
markets of one'. This was an interesting way of looking at it.
I think if we could capture the value proposition in the name,
and make that link in people's minds, that would be very
strong. The value is you can reach that individual user as if
you were making something for them.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: My last post
[10]https://github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/
issues/7#issuecomment-1059103157 ] came from discussion outside
of the thread. Wondering about, in parallel to ARIA, what do we
have here - an application?
[10] https://github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/7#issuecomment-1059103157
<Matthew_Atkinson> becky: suggests 'customization' HT Brent
Matthew_Atkinson: Recalls we liked "Adaptable Personalization"
Matthew_Atkinson: Looking for feedback on what we think about
our audience? Who are they? How to express the value
proposition? Can we address that at this naming level?
<Matthew_Atkinson> +1 to lisas' point above about what the
value is
+1 to "personalizable." It's accurate
<Matthew_Atkinson> kevin: Distinction between 'personalization'
and 'personalizable' - you need a layer on top of the content
to provide the personalization.
<lisas> what about: inclusive personlisable semantics
<Matthew_Atkinson> kevin: Audience is an interesting question;
there are a number of audiences. Developers (e.g. of CMSs);
content authors (because it's content-specific); UA plugin
developers; UA authors.
<Matthew_Atkinson> kevin: People who are aware of this
technology for their own use would be aware of it.
<Zakim> kevin, you wanted to comment on 'personalization'
versus 'personalizable', comment on audiences
<Matthew_Atkinson> kevin: The value statement is we can take
our content, mark it up and provide different approaches to
presentation without much difficulty. E.g. easy-read versions
of policies. This is an attractive proposition. Broad audience,
which is good, but a rabbit hole in terms of naming options.
<Matthew_Atkinson> janina: I would like us to not overthink
audience, as we could easily set our expectations far too low.
As kevin was talking about, we have a kerb cut technology here,
and we don't know our audience.
<Matthew_Atkinson> janina: We couldn't've prediced, e.g., the
world going so solidly into emojis.
<Matthew_Atkinson> lisas: If this takes off then a very
important user group would be the end users. If you have a
bunch of content where one adapts to you and the others don't,
that's really important to you. It needs to be 'personalization
enabled'. I need to know I can go there and my UA will work.
<Matthew_Atkinson> lisas: If it takes off, the biggest group of
users will be end users.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: The word 'inclusive' is
important, and we haven't discussed it much. It talks about
being stronger together.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: It would be great if the
name sold itself. It's not just another markup.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: We want to be able to tell
stories around this, and feel we can get publicity behind this.
Game changing as well as huge kerb cut.
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: Much like closed captions
(used in many scenarios).
<Matthew_Atkinson> Lionel_Wolberger: Would be good if the name
could argue for the importance of the spec. Inclusive
personalization or inclusive adaptation language?
<shawn> brainstorming:
<shawn> * Enabling Personalization: XYZ
<shawn> * Personalizable Content: XYZ
Matthew_Atkinson: Personalizable Adaptation feels weird even
though it's technically accurate
<shawn> * Personalizable Adaptations: XYZ
Matthew_Atkinson: Not sure it's even a word
Matthew_Atkinson: Like that we're creating a brand
Matthew_Atkinson: Does the name of the spec have to be the name
of the brand? Is that desirable? I like Lisa's
'personalization-enabled' concept but is that the same, or a
separate thing. Is the spec a subset of the brand, maybe with a
more technical name, or is it unified with the brand.
<Brent> Inclusive Content Enabled (ICE)
CharlesL: Really like the idea from Lisa about badging content
to make it clear it will adapt to your needs. Can we integrate
this with the spec somehow? Need to come up with the right name
for that, but words like 'inclusive', 'personalizable' sound
like a good fit.
<kevin> [Content My Way]
<kevin> +1 on inclusive being extremely broad
shawn: Following up on this... enabling
personalization/personalizable content. 'Inclusive' is such a
broad concept, but perhaps could be used with 'personzliation'
or 'adaptation'
janina: PC - personalized content?; PA - has a well-known
meaning in disability (personal assistant).
<kevin> [Digital Personalization Assistant]
Lionel_Wolberger: in the two minutes remaining... someone who
didn't speak yet, please...
CarlosD: The dual nature of personalization and adaptation. Not
sure if they should be together in the same sentance.
Personalization is something the user can change; adaptation is
something that is changed _for_ the user (without direct
control). From a technical perspective they seem to be
conflicting.
Lionel_Wolberger: Thanks everyone. What's the next step?
Continuing the conversation on the GitHub thread?
<lisas> i have a follow on call. need to drop :(
janina: yes; want to conclude before CR
<shawn> encourage people to put more input in [11]https://
github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/7
[11] https://github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/7
janina: Don't have much more time (maybe into April as opposed
to the end of March).
Lionel_Wolberger: could we ask EO and Personalization to give
us three top choices?
Brent: Three may be tricky. We could ask EO to read these
minutes. Come back to the issue. Then provide additional
brainstorming and we could try to filter it down.
janina: +1
janina: would like to stick with the W3 effort of consensus.
shawn: Voting doesn't help take into account considerations
such as comments made on votes. Hope we can reach consensus in
another meeting or two, or via GitHub.
Lionel_Wolberger: Some urgency. When's the next EO meeting?
Brent: Friday is the next group meeting. Could put this on the
agenda there.
<shawn> EOWG meeting Friday 8:30 ET logistics: [12]https://
www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#Teleconference_Logistics
[12] https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Meetings#Teleconference_Logistics
janina: Let's not give EO a deadline; we've laid out our
constraints, will continue to work on #144 and have an update
in two weeks. Some of us may meet with EO in the meantime.
Brent: We'd like to come up with options and rationale for
them, and let you select which you feel is best.
Lionel_Wolberger: Thanks all!
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
[13]scribe.perl version 185 (Thu Dec 2 18:51:55 2021 UTC).
[13] https://w3c.github.io/scribe2/scribedoc.html
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On 07/03/2022, 07:47, "Lionel Wolberger" <lionel@userway.org> wrote:
CAUTION: This email originated outside Vispero. Do not click links, open attachments or forward unless you recognize the sender.
Hi all,
Special guests today, the Education and Outreach Working Group is joining us. The topic, naming our Personalization Module that is soon to be up for Candidate Review status.
For naming resources see
* https://github.com/w3c/wai-personalization-standards/issues/7
* EO's recent calls' minutes that cover this discussion:
https://www.w3.org/2022/02/11-eo-minutes#t03
https://www.w3.org/2022/02/18-eo-minutes#item01
Chair: Lionel
* agenda+ Defining shortnames for the modules, with EOWG
* agenda+ Logistics: Upcoming meetings schedule (APA this Wed, CSUN next week)
* agenda+ Content Module Implementations Status (Follow-up on i18n issue #144)
* agenda+ Issue 202 regarding Visible Indicators on 2.2
* agenda+ Planning future COGA meetings on Our Other Two Modules
The teleconference information is at: call info - personalization <https://www.w3.org/2017/08/telecon-info_personalization>
Time:
* 10 am Eastern time
* 5 pm IS
* 3 pm UK time
IRC access
An IRC (Internet Relay Chat) channel will be available during the call at: https://irc.w3.org/?channels=personalization <http://irc.w3.org/?channels=personalization>
The server is irc.w3.org <https://irc.w3.org/>
The port number is 6665
The channel is #personalization
You can write any name as a nickname
Resources and useful links
* Wiki <https://t.sidekickopen90.com/s3t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7kF8cFFTBW4T_qld2zGCwVN8Jbw_8QsRtKVn1vXj1p1kknW16gGBN41Jd6G101?te=W3R5hFj4cm2zwW4mKLS-4mbkbhW49Ldrp2nQ-x1W30mhG94fDYzLW1GBcSW3F6jV_W45NqmX43TBFHW3T6jkg3T1McJf4mCW9mV3&si=8000000004174048&pi=53bec805-749d-4605-ba2b-fa8ddc27e484>; - this page has links to all our work
* mailing list archives <https://t.sidekickopen90.com/s3t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7kF8cFFTBW4T_qld2zGCwVN8Jbw_8QsRtKVn1vXj1p1kknW16gGBN41Jd6G101?te=W3R5hFj26QkH8W3T3qGX1JHM74W43Wg2w2p76z4W3T4FNJ1Lm8YzW3ZWTXk45W2z0W3SYFSb3K8R4LW41PFYp4ttcHyw43Tw4j48K2&si=8000000004174048&pi=53bec805-749d-4605-ba2b-fa8ddc27e484>
* Personalization Semantics 1.0 <https://t.sidekickopen90.com/s3t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7kF8cFFTBW4T_qld2zGCwVN8Jbw_8QsRtKVn1vXj1p1kknW16gGBN41Jd6G101?te=W3R5hFj4cm2zwW4mKLS-4mbkbhW49Ldrl308ysDW49RkMP3zd6m0W3zhs7S41p0TNW3_R5CW3SYMZQf1Q1_Lt04&si=8000000004174048&pi=53bec805-749d-4605-ba2b-fa8ddc27e484> (Personalization Semantics 1.0 Editors' Draft <https://t.sidekickopen90.com/s3t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7kF8cFFTBW4T_qld2zGCwVN8Jbw_8QsRtKVn1vXj1p1kknW16gGBN41Jd6G101?te=W3R5hFj4cm2zwW4mbpRl3P28X2W4hCPvp43np2_W49RkMP3zd6m0W3zhs7S41p0TNW3_R5CW3SYMZS0&si=8000000004174048&pi=53bec805-749d-4605-ba2b-fa8ddc27e484>). See also the Personalization Semantics Task Force GitHub repository <https://t.sidekickopen90.com/s3t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7kF8cFFTBW4T_qld2zGCwVN8Jbw_8QsRtKVn1vXj1p1kknW16gGBN41Jd6G101?te=W3R5hFj4cm2zwW3P28X24hCPvhW43T4Pc1Vp7RHW3K8R4L41PFYpW4ttcHy43Tw4hW3K6K7d4fJd-31V3&si=8000000004174048&pi=53bec805-749d-4605-ba2b-fa8ddc27e484>.
* our home page
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Lionel Wolberger
COO, UserWay Inc.lionel@userway.orgUserWay.org <http://userway.org/>
<https://t.sidekickopen90.com/s3t/c/5/f18dQhb0S7kF8cFFTBW4T_qld2zGCwVN8Jbw_8QsRtKVn1vXj1p1kknW16gGBN41Jd6G101?te=W3R5hFj4cm2zwW4hLZp04myBBCf43Wg2w04&si=8000000004174048&pi=53bec805-749d-4605-ba2b-fa8ddc27e484>
Received on Monday, 7 March 2022 16:18:13 UTC