W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-personalization-tf@w3.org > February 2020

Re: Personalization Task Force meeting minutes

From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 14:19:02 -0500
To: Charles LaPierre <charlesl@benetech.org>
Cc: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>, Steve Lee <stevelee@w3.org>, public-personalization-tf <public-personalization-tf@w3.org>
Message-ID: <20200205191902.GI370382@rednote.net>
Sure, and we should (and will) discuss it.

As I recall Monday's meeting, the agreement was exactly that. We will
discuss and reach a conclusion this month whether (or not) top move
forward on a permanent prefix request.


There are arguments both ways, so the decision will certainly arise out
of a balance of considerations and necessarily reflect a consensus of
the group.

While we're at it, I suggest that deciding we're NOT ready now should
come with some specific milestones to help us identify when we've
reached a ready state. Else we spin these same wheels in the same mud
from time to time. I submit we've all more interesting ways to spend our
time.

Charles LaPierre writes:
> I do like this approach that John is suggesting, and maybe that is the best approach, but at what cost?  Just worried what might happen if we wait too long, I really don’t know what the right decision is, we need to lay out all the pros/cons and then make a decision.  I also think that once we have all the pros/cons that this might be bigger than our small TF to make that decision.  I also think that maybe once we go for our I18N / PING / TAG reviews this may help shed more light on this.
> 
> Thanks
> EOM
> Charles LaPierre
> Technical Lead, DIAGRAM and Born Accessible
> Twitter: @CLaPierreA11Y
> Skype: charles_lapierre
> 
> 
> On Feb 5, 2020, at 10:30 AM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com<mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>> wrote:
> 
> Janina wrote:
> 
> > the suggestion was to ask them to provide the permanent prefix.
> 
> ...which to me feels like we've already given up on striving for non-prefixed attributes. From my perspective, I'd rather go to them with a complete collection of data-* attributes, implementation experience(s), and a request to make them ALL prefix free at that time. Then, when they come back with a two-list response, (we can do these, but not these) that's when we then ask them to recommend a new, permanent prefix. I assert that asking them now for a "permanent" prefix limits our options down the road, is all. (I can also point to ARIA, where @role was accepted prefix free, but other attributes were not)
> 
> Shooting for the stars will get you perhaps to the moon, and the idealist in me hopes that all of our new attributes will get accepted prefix free (and the pragmatist in me accepts that won't likely happen, although I remain at heart a star-gazer...).
> 
> JF
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 10:44 AM Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net<mailto:janina@rednote.net>> wrote:
> We hear you, John. I suspect not all of us agree with you, but we
> certainly hear you.
> 
> BTW: Who suggested NOT keeping our friends in the loop? I believe the
> suggestion was to ask them to provide the permanent prefix.
> 
> John Foliot writes:
> > Given we're barely at FPWD, and with 2 more  modules that are even less
> > mature, I'm not that concerned. With enough implementation evidence, we may
> > get to final CR with **no prefix at all**, at least for some of our
> > proposed attributes.
> >
> > This is a well-worn path at the W3C already - we need to only look at how
> > CSS advanced features: they used 'browser-flags' as shown in this code
> > sample:
> >
> > -webkit-transition: -webkit-transform .3s ease-in-out;
> >    -moz-transition:    -moz-transform .3s ease-in-out;
> >     -ms-transition:     -ms-transform .3s ease-in-out;
> >      -o-transition:      -o-transform .3s ease-in-out;
> >         transition:         transform .3s ease-in-out;
> >
> > (And, I keep coming back to the fact that TAG also recommended using data-*
> > after our presentation at TPAC 2018, and at some point we need to keep our
> > friends on board as well)
> >
> >  So, respectfully, I don't think this is a huge concern at this time. Let's
> > get what we have out now, get it socialized and get some implementation
> > examples and experience, and go from there.
> >
> > I understand the sense of urgency from the COGA WG perspective, but as my
> > grandmother used to say, "less haste, more speed". I'll further suggest
> > revisiting "prefixes" at this time is a distraction - we went there, and
> > decided on data-* during those deliberations. Let's move forward and not
> > revisit old discussions.
> >
> > JF
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 6:32 AM Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net<mailto:janina@rednote.net>> wrote:
> >
> > > OK, quick response ...
> > >
> > > Without a replacement for data- this spec can go no further than CR.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Janina
> > >
> > > Steve Lee writes:
> > > > On 03/02/2020 18:27, John Foliot wrote:
> > > > > I am unconvinced that deciding on a prefix at this time is that
> > > critical.
> > > >
> > > > That is my opinion too.
> > > >
> > > > It feels like an implementation detail level distraction.
> > > >
> > > > There way be other aspects I'm missing but if we are concerned about the
> > > > impact on community users at this early stage I think anyone trying out
> > > an
> > > > implementation or trial will be aware it is experimental and so likely to
> > > > change. We can always be sure to give clear messaging
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Janina Sajka
> > >
> > > Linux Foundation Fellow
> > > Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:       http://a11y.org<http://a11y.org/>
> > >
> > > The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> > > Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures        http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > *​John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC Representative
> > Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
> > deque.com<http://deque.com/>
> 
> --
> 
> Janina Sajka
> 
> Linux Foundation Fellow
> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:       http://a11y.org<http://a11y.org/>
> 
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures        http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
> 
> 
> 
> --
> ​John Foliot | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC Representative
> Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
> deque.com<http://deque.com/>
> 
> 

-- 

Janina Sajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:	http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures	http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
Received on Wednesday, 5 February 2020 19:19:10 UTC

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