- From: Rinke Hoekstra <hoekstra@few.vu.nl>
- Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 15:45:45 +0200
- To: Ian Horrocks <ian.horrocks@comlab.ox.ac.uk>
- Cc: mark@few.vu.nl, Uli Sattler <sattler@cs.man.ac.uk>, OWL 2 <public-owl-wg@w3.org>, Mark van Assem <mark@cs.vu.nl>
On 4 sep 2009, at 11:37, Ian Horrocks wrote: > "Note that being asymmetric is a much stronger notion than being non- > symmetric; > likewise, being symmetric is a much stronger notion than being non- > asymmetric. > Moreover, asymmetry is a stronger notion than anti-symmetry as it > requires that > the relationship is also irreflexive." Works for me. Rinke > > I agree with Uli's point that the primer needs to be kept short and > shouldn't be expected to "provide exhaustive clarifications of all > subtleties and explanations of all possible misunderstandings". > However, I can live with the above modest expansion if others can. > > Ian > > > > On 4 Sep 2009, at 09:20, Rinke Hoekstra wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Guess I agree with both of you ;) >> >> On 3 sep 2009, at 14:34, mark@few.vu.nl wrote: >>> "Note that asymmetry is a stronger notion than anti-symmetry as it >>> requires that >>> the relationship is also irreflexive." >> >> That looks good. >> >>> Create links for the terms "asymmetry", "anti-symmetry" and >>> "irreflexivity" >>> (e.g. wikipedia) and it's what I would need from a "primer". >> >> I disagree. Wikipedia pages tend to change, and are outside the >> control of the WG, the W3C, nor subject another trusted editorial >> process (as RFC's or ISO). >> >> Your proposed wording should be enough. >> >> -Rinke >> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Mark van Assem. >>> >>>> Hi Rinke, >>>> >>>> yes, one could add more explanation regarding asymmetric properties >>>> --- but I doubt whether the primer is the right place: it's a >>>> *prime*r >>>> (as in 'first starting point'), and thus won't be the place to >>>> provide >>>> exhaustive clarifications of all subtleties and explanations of all >>>> possible misunderstandings. I can think of/remember many questions/ >>>> misunderstandings of OWL constructors, and also how they >>>> interact, and >>>> I don't want to see asymmetric properties being singled out as the >>>> one feature that is explained in depth... >>>> >>>> Cheers, Uli >>>> >>>> On 2 Sep 2009, at 15:56, Rinke Hoekstra wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I just had a request from Mark van Assem to add an extra >>>>> explanation >>>>> to the primer about asymmetry. >>>>> >>>>> Pascal's addition to the primer [1] is fine: >>>>> >>>>> "Note that being asymmetric is a much stronger notion than being >>>>> non- >>>>> symmetric. Likewise, being symmetric is a much stronger notion >>>>> than >>>>> being non-asymmetric. " >>>>> >>>>> ... but a bit short and could introduce additional confusion (what >>>>> then does non-symmetry mean? and non-asymmetric?). Also, it >>>>> might be >>>>> helpful to say something along the lines that asymmetry is anti- >>>>> symmetry + irreflexivity (anti-symmetry and asymmetry are easily >>>>> confused). >>>>> >>>>> The primer would be the right place for this addition. >>>>> >>>>> -Rinke >>>>> >>>>> [1] >>>> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/index.php?title=Primer&diff=25059&oldid=25056 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5 aug 2009, at 09:40, Christine Golbreich wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> 2009/8/4 Ian Horrocks <ian.horrocks@comlab.ox.ac.uk>: >>>>>>> Can we have a diff please. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Ian >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - for profiles >>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/index.php?title=New_Features_and_Rationale&diff=prev&oldid=25076 >>>>>> - for asymmetric >>>>>> >>>> >>> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/index.php?title=New_Features_and_Rationale&diff=prev&oldid=25052 >>>>>> >>>>>> cg >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 4 Aug 2009, at 18:58, Christine Golbreich wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Note on asymmetric properties and profiles added in NF&R >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> cg >>>>>>>> 2009/7/31 Antoine Zimmermann <antoine.zimmermann@deri.org>: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Until today, I did not look at the semantics of >>>>>>>>> AsymmetricProperty >>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>> the word was familiar enough to me to intuitively understand >>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>> I was >>>>>>>>> however wrongly assuming that the word was used to denote non- >>>>>>>>> symmetric. >>>>>>>>> From a linguistic perspective, asymmetry is a lack or >>>>>>>>> absence of >>>>>>>>> symmetry. >>>>>>>>> Some mathematical texts use "asymmetric" to simply mean "not >>>>>>>>> symmetric". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am aware that "asymmetric relation" is often used in >>>>>>>>> mathematics to >>>>>>>>> denote >>>>>>>>> "strongly asymmetric relation", i.e., no pairs of elements are >>>>>>>>> related in >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> bidirectional (symmetric) way. While it is perfectly ok that >>>>>>>>> OWL2 defines >>>>>>>>> AsymmetricProperties the way it does, I am surprised not to >>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>> *any* >>>>>>>>> remark, neither in the formal specs, nor in the UFDs, nor in >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>> list archives, about the fact that AsymmetricProperty is not >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> complement >>>>>>>>> of SymmetricProperty. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am sure that other people are understanding asymmetry in the >>>>>>>>> same way >>>>>>>>> as I >>>>>>>>> did, so I'd suggest adding a small sentence in the Primer >>>>>>>>> (Sect. >>>>>>>>> 6.1 [1]) >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> NF&R (Sect.2.2.3 [2]) stating that "asymmetric" is not the >>>>>>>>> negation of >>>>>>>>> "symmetric". Since the UFDs are still in LC, this should be >>>>>>>>> addressed >>>>>>>>> somehow. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> [1] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-primer-20090421/#Property_Characteristics >>>>>>>>> [2] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-owl2-new-features-20090421/ >>>>>>>>> #F6:_Reflexive.2C_Irreflexive. >>>>>>>>> 2C_and_Asymmetric_Object_Properties >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Antoine Zimmermann >>>>>>>>> Post-doctoral researcher at: >>>>>>>>> Digital Enterprise Research Institute >>>>>>>>> National University of Ireland, Galway >>>>>>>>> IDA Business Park >>>>>>>>> Lower Dangan >>>>>>>>> Galway, Ireland >>>>>>>>> antoine.zimmermann@deri.org >>>>>>>>> http://vmgal34.deri.ie/~antzim/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Christine >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Christine >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> Drs Rinke Hoekstra >>>>> >>>>> Leibniz Center for Law | AI Department >>>>> Faculty of Law | Faculty of Sciences >>>>> Universiteit van Amsterdam | Vrije Universiteit >>>>> Kloveniersburgwal 48 | De Boelelaan 1081a >>>>> 1012 CX Amsterdam | 1081 HV Amsterdam >>>>> +31-(0)20-5253499 | +31-(0)20-5987752 >>>>> hoekstra@uva.nl | hoekstra@few.vu.nl >>>>> >>>>> Homepage: http://www.few.vu.nl/~hoekstra >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> --- >> Drs Rinke Hoekstra >> >> Leibniz Center for Law | AI Department >> Faculty of Law | Faculty of Sciences >> Universiteit van Amsterdam | Vrije Universiteit >> Kloveniersburgwal 48 | De Boelelaan 1081a >> 1012 CX Amsterdam | 1081 HV Amsterdam >> +31-(0)20-5253499 | +31-(0)20-5987752 >> hoekstra@uva.nl | hoekstra@few.vu.nl >> >> Homepage: http://www.few.vu.nl/~hoekstra >> >> >> >> >> >> > --- Drs Rinke Hoekstra Leibniz Center for Law | AI Department Faculty of Law | Faculty of Sciences Universiteit van Amsterdam | Vrije Universiteit Kloveniersburgwal 48 | De Boelelaan 1081a 1012 CX Amsterdam | 1081 HV Amsterdam +31-(0)20-5253499 | +31-(0)20-5987752 hoekstra@uva.nl | hoekstra@few.vu.nl Homepage: http://www.few.vu.nl/~hoekstra
Received on Friday, 4 September 2009 13:46:27 UTC