- From: Bijan Parsia <bparsia@cs.man.ac.uk>
- Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:41:07 +0000
- To: Phillip Lord <phillip.lord@newcastle.ac.uk>
- Cc: public-owl-dev@w3.org
On 15 Jan 2007, at 11:44, Phillip Lord wrote: [snip] > JH> if the WG wants my opinion, they should remove that topic from > JH> the scope - but if that's not viaable, then expect that there > JH> will be those of us who insist that the WG pay attention to > JH> things that are not "measurable" and require us trusting > JH> people's instincts and experiences, which makes many formalists > JH> very nervous. > > Usability is just as measurable as tractability, I would say. I agree that Uli overstated the case a bit, but I think this overstates things the other way. Usability is more *difficult* to measure than worst case complexity because it is highly multidimensional, and typically requires experiments. Usability is sensitive to, among many other things: task, user, and support environment (tools, books, accessible gurus). Even when one has good data it can be difficult to interpret and even more difficult to generalize. This doesn't mean that usability considerations can't be brought into play, but that one has to be very careful about the sorts of claims one makes and with what degree of confidence. *Language* usability is a particularly tough nut to achieve consensus on. (Of course, the connection between worst case complexity and effective scalability is also highly sensitive to particular implementations and implementation techniques as well as problem, which, itself, is sensitive to application area, users, etc. Worst case complexity is just some data, and it needs interpretation.) > As far > as I understand it, the complexity of solving a DL is determined by > it's expressivity. But as a user of DLs I don't actually care about > the complexity, rather how fast the reasoner runs which is just not > the same thing If you look at the tractable fragments document: <http://owl1_1.cs.manchester.ac.uk/tractable.html> You'll see that it's not merely a presentation of the worst case complexity of various DL. (Compare with the description logic complexity navigator: <http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~ezolin/logic/complexity.html>) It selects several DLs that seem useful and usable and have both a complexity that suggests that certain implementation techniques will be both straightforward and effective. E.g., DL Lite can be realized *on top* of a relational database system without heroics. This is interesting, I think, because it *suggests* that a relational database vendor will be able to provide a *robust* DL Lite implementation *as a part* of their relational system and thus make use of all the implementation effort they put into it as well as adapting the middleware. *If* DL Lite is expressive enough for a sizable class of uses, then this is a big win. So, I think when evaluating usabilty of a species, one has to evaluate the probability of good tool support. The TF document provides *some* (non-conclusive) information about that. BTW, I don't think any "theorists", at least, any one involved in these debates, conflate worse case complexity with effectively implementability. > (or if they work at all, which was quite a while for > OWL-DL). > > There are a number of ways in which usability could be tested. We > could gather up a set of curated ontologies and find out which > constructs are used most often; naive users could be surveyed with > descriptions of the constructs and questions about the implications, > to see which attract most frequent confusion. Data like this is often useful (though I'm not sure that focusing on naive users, for example, is the best choice; how naive is naive? for some classes of users you want to avoid the notion of "constructs" altogether and teachability is only one aspect of usability). > Of course, these measures will not be perfect. They will fail to give > an exact answer about what is good and what is not good expressivity > for the users; but, then, provable complexity of the different > expressivities doesn't give you an exact answer as to what is going to > run fast in practise which is what most people actually care about. No one said that. However, it does give you a more exact answer, esp. with regard to implementation choices. And it's a good starting place. And that work (with implementation and experiments) is further along. When people present comparable usability data, I'll be comparably impressed :) (And I've worked on surveys and user studies, fwiw, in this area.) However, in both cases, if vendors (i.e., any tool builder) aren't willing to support the fragment, it's not really helpful to identify it. > As for making formalists nervous, hey, well, somethings you just have > to live with. They can take beta-blockers or something. I don't see that this sort of language is helpful, esp. as its entirely gratuitous. If you look at the quote you quoted, the alternative to "making the formalists nervous" was "trusting people's instincts and experiences," *not* trusting formal usability results. (I *think* Jim was overstating for rhetorical effect, but I also think it was rather unfair to Uli's point -- after all, I think it's perfectly correct to say that leaving out qualified cardinality restrictions was a usabiilty-motived *usability* bug). I would prefer in these discussions that we didn't blithely work in caricatures of groups of people's psychological states. Am I a formalist? I've has as much input as anyone into these documents and I've worked on reasoner implementations and optimization, complexity results, surface syntax design, visualization, editor design and implementation, taught naive users, etc. etc., oh, and built ontologies (for real, well, for real-ish -- mostly at the conceptual modeling scope, e.g., OWL-S). Designing a useful language requires marshalling a lot of data *and* making some educated, inconclusively supported, judgments. Often, the data just won't be enough to even make such a judgement (but only, at best, a guess), in which cases, I prefer to let what people are willing to materially support determine those aspects of design (since, such support is another critical aspect of getting something usable). The TF document is a *starting* place for such discussion. I don't see that the information there is so very scorn worthy. Cheers, Bijan.
Received on Tuesday, 16 January 2007 12:40:57 UTC