- From: Stian Soiland-Reyes <soiland-reyes@cs.manchester.ac.uk>
- Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2013 10:53:44 +0100
- To: Antoine Isaac <aisaac@few.vu.nl>
- Cc: public-openannotation <public-openannotation@w3.org>
This principle would indicate that 'serializedBy' should be rather expressed on the RDF resource or graph itself - which should (at least in usecases such as Darwin annotations) have a distinct URI from the oa:Annotation. e.g. GET http://example.com/annotations/1337 Content-Type: text/turtle # @prefix ... <> oa:serializedBy <fred> ; foaf:primaryTopic <#ann> . <#ann> a oa:Annotation ; oa:annotatedBy <the-original-annotator> . the philosophy of PROV is to follow this to the letter, anything with a separate provenance is a separate prov:Entity. In PAV, however, we saw the need for 'shortcuts' to avoid having to unchain a potentially very complex history to find actors like the authors and the digital creator. I see oa:*By as similar kind of shortcuts - but we might not have specified strongly what we mean by 'serializing' and 'annotating' - hence two different implementations might be describing different actors for the same scenario. On 17 August 2013 22:34, Antoine Isaac <aisaac@few.vu.nl> wrote: > Hi Bob, > > That's a great name :-) > > In the Dublin Core community (and several others, I expect) the principle > that one resource should not be used as a vector for describing two entities > is often refered to as the "one-to-one principle": > http://wiki.dublincore.org/index.php/Glossary/One-to-One_Principle > > Cheers, > > Antoine > > > > >> Antoine- >> >> I take no position on whether Paolo is indeed introducing a confusion >> between an annotation and the digital representation of the >> annotation. But my experience has been that such confusion is very >> common and not just about annotations, but, as you point out, about >> any kind of resource. The most typical case I find among natural >> scientists is eagerness to assign the same identifier to a physical >> object as to a digital description of it. Paolo himself tends to warn >> about this in talks about annotation, using the Eiffel Tower as an >> example. It's a natural thing for humans to do, because in human >> dialogue, the context often makes clear which is under discussion. >> But when the context doesn't, confusion ensues. One venue where >> confusion is \likely/ is when informaticians are discussing a case in >> which both require treatment. >> >> I think the phenomenon is so pervasive that we need a short, memorable >> name for it, especially one I can use to bludgeon my natural science >> colleagues who think it's \helpful/ to have a single identifier for a >> physical thing and its digital description. >> >> I propose to call what you remark upon a "doppelgänger fallacy." >> >> I especially relish the prospect of hopping up in a talk and saying >> "Paolo! You, of all people, have introduced a doppelgänger fallacy on >> slide 23!" :-) >> >> Bob Morris >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 8:42 AM, Antoine Isaac <aisaac@few.vu.nl> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Paolo, >>> >>> I agree that the decisions on scenario 1-2-3 are entirely up to you. And >>> the >>> more fundamental decisions on having one annotation or one annotation and >>> something else (another annotation or a PROV entity) also. But as long as >>> your short-cuts have a sound grounding! If others can't understand >>> clearly >>> what you've done then it's a big problem ;-) >>> >>> As for the mappings (pav:authoredBy is a sub-property of oa:annotatedBy, >>> pav:curatedBy a sub-property of oa:annotatedBy) I agree with you. I used >>> "sub-property" but I meant it in a "local" context. I.e for all triples >>> in >>> your annotation case, you should generate another triple of the more >>> general >>> property. I think what you suggest is ok. >>> >>> >>> As for pav:createdBy, sentence like: >>> >>> "In pav:createdBy is used for the digital artifact only. While >>> pav:authoredBy, pav:curatedBy and so on... are for the content of the >>> artifact. So you can have both pav:createdBy (person that created the >>> artifact) and pav:curatedBy (person that collected and curated its >>> content)." >>> and: >>> >>> "pav:createdBy is more specific than dct:creator as it refers only to the >>> digital artifact." >>> are really confusing. >>> In RDF is one resource that is the object of the statements, and it >>> denotes >>> ONE entity. You can't have two properties applied to one resource, and >>> sometimes the resource should be interpreted as the annotation, and some >>> other times as the digital representation of the annotation. >>> >>> If you want to use createdBy as a shortcut, and still subject it to the >>> oa:Annotation resource, then your definition should rather be : >>> "pav:createdBy is used for the creator of digital artifact that >>> represents >>> the resource". And then the name should be changed because it doesn't >>> reflect the short-cut at all. It should be something like >>> pav:hasDigitalRepresentationCreatedBy... >>> >>> If you want to use createdBy on a resource that is a digital >>> representation >>> of the oa:Annotation (so not the oa:Annotation itself) then the wording >>> is >>> better. But in this case, well, you can't subject it to the resource you >>> wanted to subject it on. And there's no point in minting a property that >>> is >>> not dc:creator... (or course dc:creator can be applied to any resource, >>> be >>> it a conceptual one of a representation). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Antoine >>> >>> >>>> Hi Antoine, >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 7:12 AM, Antoine Isaac <aisaac@few.vu.nl >>>> <mailto:aisaac@few.vu.nl>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Wow, the return of a serious discussion, in an even more complex >>>> form, >>>> awesome ;-) >>>> >>>> First a remark on Stian's comment: >>>> >>>> "and the conclusion seemed to have been that it is simpler to merge >>>> the conceptual annotation with the formalized annotation as a >>>> datastructure." >>>> >>>> Yes, and this was about the data structure only. The annotation is >>>> really of conceptual nature. We just allow for attributes (e.g. >>>> oa:serializedBy) that shortcut some provenance info. A full, correct >>>> representation has the serialization appear as a fully-fledged (PROV) >>>> entity, distinct from the oa:Annotation, as pictured at >>>> >>>> http://www.openannotation.org/__spec/core/appendices.html#__ProvMapping >>>> <http://www.openannotation.org/spec/core/appendices.html#ProvMapping> >>>> >>>> >>>> Based on this indeed pav:authoredBy is a sub-property of >>>> oa:annotatedBy (or an equivalent, in the specific context). >>>> >>>> >>>> I would say it is more an equivalent as pav:authoredBy is not only for >>>> annotations. >>>> >>>> >>>> The question next is how to handle the extra level of "digital >>>> annotation" - the guy who captures the annotation in the system (I'll >>>> just >>>> focus on the "creator" aspect, the discussion is long enough, let's >>>> ignore >>>> "with" "at" and "on"). >>>> >>>> I like Jacco's and Stian's suggestions of double annotations >>>> (whether >>>> one is the target or the body or the other...). It is complex, but it >>>> represents the situation quite well. In this case both are annotators. >>>> >>>> >>>> This would complicate the implementation though. In some sense, I see >>>> the >>>> "extra level of "digital annotation"" more as extra level of provenance >>>> so I >>>> can stay 'compact'. >>>> We had a similar issue with Claims representation. You have the >>>> conceptual >>>> Claim and then multiple embodiment of that claim in text. It is a tough >>>> problem. >>>> >>>> But sure, you could think of both of them as annotators. Not sure Darwin >>>> would like that but I cannot talk for him :) >>>> >>>> An alternative is to create one annotation (oa:annotatedBy Darwin) >>>> and >>>> another non-annotation resource. Something similar to the PROV entity we >>>> have for the serialization. It would represent the act of capturing a >>>> annotation in the system, where the student plays the creator role. >>>> >>>> In any case, that's two resources. >>>> >>>> But as for the serialization case, you may want to have only one >>>> resource in a 'core' solution. Two options here: >>>> >>>> 1. Consider that the oa:Annotation is the result of the >>>> intellectual >>>> work of both Darwin and the student. In this case both are the object of >>>> an >>>> oa:annotatedBy. I think this choice is borderline, but in a specific >>>> application context, where students spend hard work >>>> deciphering/interpreting >>>> an annotation, why not? >>>> If you want to use pav:curatedBy still, then you would need to have >>>> it >>>> a sub-property of oa:annotatedBy >>>> >>>> >>>> We cannot really do that as pav:curatedBy is also used for objects that >>>> are not annotations. >>>> What I could think of doing now is: >>>> >>>> <ann1> >>>> oa:annotatedBy <Darwin> >>>> oa:annotatedBy <Student> >>>> pav:authoredBy <Darwin> >>>> pav:curatedBy <Student> >>>> >>>> It is redundant but that way the semantics is clear for both OA and PAV >>>> and it allows OA clients to get to the provenance. >>>> What do you think of it? >>>> >>>> >>>> 2. Consider that the role of the student is minor. In this case, I >>>> think a property with a name like pav:curatedBy still makes sense. But >>>> it >>>> would be a specialization of something more general, maybe >>>> dc:contributor. >>>> And its semantic would in fact be the one of "short-cut" for the more >>>> complex situation where a second annotation (or a PROV entity) exist to >>>> represent the situation at the right granularity. >>>> >>>> >>>> In PAV most of the properties are short-cuts. The idea is to have a >>>> single >>>> object rather than a series of them. It does not solve everything, but >>>> it >>>> works for many use cases. >>>> At the moment pav:curatedBy is sub-property of prov:wasAttributedTo and >>>> also dct:contributor. So I think we are on the same page. >>>> >>>> >>>> 3. Consider that the role of Darwin is minor (very borderline >>>> maybe). >>>> In this case the student is the oa:annotatedBy, and Darwin a mere >>>> dc:contributor. >>>> >>>> >>>> Frankly I feel uncomfortable with this approach. But it is true, it >>>> depends on how you intend the annotation. >>>> >>>> >>>> In any case I don't think you can do anything practical with a >>>> solution that would only have one resource of type oa:Annotation and a >>>> short-cut property with a name like pav:createdBy. The name and >>>> intuitive >>>> semantics are really too close to dc:creator and oa:annotatedBy (as the >>>> creator of the Annotation)! In fact pav:curatedBy is much better, which >>>> is >>>> why I think it could be defined as a short-cut in option 2 above. >>>> >>>> >>>> In pav:createdBy is used for the digital artifact only. While >>>> pav:authoredBy, pav:curatedBy and so on... are for the content of the >>>> artifact. >>>> So you can have both pav:createdBy (person that created the artifact) >>>> and >>>> pav:curatedBy (person that collected and curated its content). >>>> >>>> >>>> Note that PAV mentions dct:createdBy as the super-property of >>>> pav:createdBy, which to my knowledge does not exist. In fact I really >>>> believe PAV would benefit from removing pav:createdBy. If you need it, >>>> re-introduce it with a better name, and clearer semantics! >>>> >>>> >>>> That is just a typo in the description it is dct:creator. pav:createdBy >>>> is >>>> more specific than dct:creator as it refers only to the digital >>>> artifact. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Paolo >>>> >>> > > -- Stian Soiland-Reyes, myGrid team School of Computer Science The University of Manchester http://soiland-reyes.com/stian/work/ http://orcid.org/0000-0001-9842-9718
Received on Monday, 19 August 2013 09:54:37 UTC