Re: clarification needed on what is meant by exercising an action

I think what is missing from Example 21 (to make it more realistic) is a temporal constraint on the Obligation.

Lets say the example said that you had to delete the document by midnight tonight (Brisbane time :-)
otherwise you then ALSO need to pay EU$10 to WWF.

If that time passes, you still need to delete the document AND pay WWF the donation (because you were late…and it saves tigers :-)

I hope that makes it a bit clearer….

R



> On 6 Feb 2024, at 00:39, Sridhar Krishnamurthy <ksridhar@amagi.com> wrote:
> 
> Respected sir,
> 
> Thank you for your response.
> 
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2024 at 6:44 PM Joshua Cornejo <josh@marketdata.md <mailto:josh@marketdata.md>> wrote:
>> See bold notes on your quote of Section 2.63:
>> 
>>  If its action has not been exercised, then all consequences must also be fulfilled to fulfil the Duty. That is, consequences are additional Duties that must also be fulfilled.
>> 
>>  … 
>> 
>> The consequence property (a sub-property of the failure property) is utilised to express the repercussions of not fulfilling an agreed Policy obligation or duty for a Permission. If either of these fails to be fulfilled, then this will result in the consequence Duties also becoming new requirements, meaning that the original obligation or duty, as well as the consequence Duties MUST all be fulfilled.
>> 
>> In my interpretation, they are not additional duties, they are safeguard chains of responsibility (for example: you get permission to play the movie ratatouille, your duty to execute the action is to pay $10, the consequence of failing payment that duty is $5). There could be a further duty of 10% monthly interest on the balance if you fail to fulfil the consequence (Permission-> duty to PAY-> failed (penalty duty) -> failed (interest duty))
>> 
> 
> '...safeguard chains ...' brings about some clarity. 
> 
> But forgive me as my doubt still lingers especially in the
> context of the Example Use Case paragraph of EXAMPLE 21.
> 
> There are two observations here:
> (1) firstly please see the issue that i have raised in https://github.com/w3c/odrl/issues/37
> (2) secondly let us look at the para again
> Example Use Case: The below Agreement includes an obligation from assigner http://example.com/org:43 to assignee http://example.com/person:44 to delete the target Asset. If the obligation is not fulfilled, then a consequence is that the assigner MUST now also compensate the nominated charity with a payment of EU10.00 (as well as the fulfill the obligation Duty).
> and let us consider the following scenarios
> (a) Delete action could be performed and there is no consequence
> (b) Delete action could not be performed and there is a consequence
> (c) is there anything else ?
> 
> Now considering 
> (i) your explanation <<...meaning that the original obligation or duty, as well as the consequence Duties MUST all be fulfilled.>>
> (ii) and <<...(as well as the fulfill the obligation Duty)...>> stated in the EXAMPLE 21
> 
> it is confusing as to how can the obligation be fulfilled along with the consequence 
> when the consequence came into effect because the obligation could not be fulfilled 
> (that is not being able to delete in EXAMPLE 21).
> 
> Please do throw some light on this confusion that i am facing.
> 
> thanks and regards
> 
>> Regards, 
>> 
>> ____________________________________________ 
>> Joshua Cornejo 
>> http://about.me/joshuacornejo 
>> 
>> We shape clay into a pot, but it is the emptiness inside that holds whatever we want. 
>> - Lao Tzu
>> 
>>  
>> From: Sridhar Krishnamurthy <ksridhar@amagi.com <mailto:ksridhar@amagi.com>>
>> Sent: Monday, February 5, 2024 11:57 am
>> To: public-odrl@w3.org <mailto:public-odrl@w3.org> <public-odrl@w3.org <mailto:public-odrl@w3.org>>
>> Subject: clarification needed on what is meant by exercising an action
>>  
>> Respected Madam/Sir,
>> 
>> CONTEXT
>> =======
>> In the context of the following statement in https://www.w3.org/TR/odrl-model/#duty
>> 
>> ...
>> If its action has not been exercised, then all consequences must also be fulfilled to fulfil the Duty. That is, consequences are additional Duties that must also be fulfilled. 
>> ....
>> 
>> QUESTION
>> ========
>> Exercise as per dictionary (in this context) means
>>         use or apply (a faculty, right, or process).
>> 
>> So does the above statement mean
>> 
>> (a) the consequence has to be fulfilled if the action has not been performed 
>> or
>> (b) the consequence has to be fulfilled if the action had been performed but had failed.
>> 
>> POSSIBLE ANSWER
>> ===============
>> 
>> It seems that (b) is the interpretation in the light of the statement
>> ...That is, consequences are additional Duties ...
>> 
>> REDIRECT
>> ========
>> 
>> Please do point me to message(s) in public-odrl  or
>> public-odrl-contrib if this has already been answered
>> as my search did not yield a desired result.
>> 
>> thank you
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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