- From: Dominique Hazael-Massieux <dom@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 16:07:17 +0200
- To: "'public-networks-ig@w3.org'" <public-networks-ig@w3.org>
Hi,
The minutes of our 18th IG meeting are available at:
https://www.w3.org/2021/09/08-web-networks-minutes.html
and copied as text below.
Dom
Web & Networks 18th meeting: Client-Edge-Cloud coordination Use Cases
and Requirements
08 September 2021
[2]Agenda. [3]IRC log.
[2]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-networks-ig/2021Aug/0000.html
[3] https://www.w3.org/2021/09/08-web-networks-irc
Attendees
Present
AliBegen, ChrisNeedham, DapengMax, Dom, EricSiow,
JonDevlin, LarryZaho, Louay, Shan_Huaqi, SOngXu, Sudeep,
YajunChen
Regrets
-
Chair
DanD, Song, Sudeep
Scribe
cpn, dom
Contents
1. [4]IG updates
2. [5]Client-Edge-Cloud coordination Use Cases and
Requirements
Meeting minutes
[6]Slides
[6]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-networks-ig/2021Sep/att-0002/Client-Edge-Cloud_coordination___Use_Cases_and_Requirements__.pdf
Sudeep: welcome - long time since our last meeting in June
… this is our 18th meeting of Web & Networks
… two topics on the agenda today - a few updates from the
chairs, followed by a talk on Edge Computing focused on
client-edge-cloud coordination use cases & requirements by our
guest Max from Alibaba
IG updates
Sudeep: TPAC 2021 is coming
… opportunity for breakout sessions the week of October 18,
with a deadline for proposals on October 8
[7]TPAC 2021 breakout sessions proposals
[7] https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2021/SessionIdeas
Sudeep: second week (October 25-29) is for group meetings - the
Web & Networks IG is planning to meet there to give updates on
its workstreams: edge computing, networking tools
… and network info/prediction
… date soon to be determined
… the IG is also invited to the Multicast CG meeting during
TPAC - that group started after a discussion with MEIG & our IG
last spring
… date set to Oct 27 at 3pm UTC
… There is also a call for demos as part of TPAC that was
forwarded to the list
… Jake Holland is preparing one on Multicast
… all the IG participants are invited to think about topics
that might be worth a demo
… demo descriptions are expected next week, and demo recordings
by end of the month
Song: Larry (my colleague from China Mobile) is planning on
developing a proposal
Sudeep: in terms of new work: we have a new workstream on
network emulation tools
Song: an invitation to a call for that workstream has been sent
to the group with an agenda
… including standardization needs around a trace format
Sudeep: based on that meeting, it would be great to see if that
might justify a meeting for TPAC, e.g. as breakout session or
as part of our TPAC IG meeting
Sudeep: another new piece wor is the one I mentioned earlier:
the Multicast CG
… active related discussions in IETF
… from a browser perspectives, questions around privacy &
security
… but lot's of possible value e.g. in games, media, etc
[8]Multicast CG
[8] https://www.w3.org/community/multicast/
Client-Edge-Cloud coordination Use Cases and Requirements
Sudeep: part of our Edge COmputing workstream
… by our guest Max (Dapeng) Liu, part of the Alibaba
standardization team
[9]Slides
[9]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-networks-ig/2021Sep/att-0002/Client-Edge-Cloud_coordination___Use_Cases_and_Requirements__.pdf
Max: there have been previous discussions in the IG around Edge
Computing
… from our Alibaba Cloud experiences, we have requirements and
proposals we would like to share
… to help move forward the work in the group
… First use case is based on Tmall Genie
… we use it to run a smart speaker app in the cloud, reducing
the cost of smart speaker devices
… because most of the computing can move to the edge/cloud
… which means the smart speaker can use very cheap hardware,
while improving the UX
… the Edge Cloud being close to the smart speaker device
ensures low latency
… This architecture is specific - not standardized for interop
across cloud providers
… this is a general direction we're seeing emerge from the
industry
… Second use case is about AR/VR scenarios
… the bottom picture shows the user perspective of an online
shopping application
… it allows the user to see information related to various
products (prices and more)
… this requires a lot of computing power - there are good
opportunities to commercialize this kind of solutions with the
arrival of 5G
… by transferring data and content from the edge to the AR/VR
headsets
… 3rd use case is linked to Machine Learning
… this architecture is based on an Alibaba open source project,
with a client-side model provided to developers
… the use case would be to have some of the models offloaded
from the end-user device to the edge
… 4th use case is related to high availability applications
… one example is for live broadcasting
… if you're live broadcasting from a situation where the
network is not very stable, but with several network interfaces
(e.g. LAN, cellular, multiple cellular interfaces)
… you could run the computing-intensive tasks in several edge
nodes, so that they can stay available if one network interface
falls
… Based on these said use cases, I suggest 2 requirements
… R1: Client should be able to offload computing intensive work
to the edge cloud
… R2: edge back to client
… Part 3 proposes a high level architecture proposal
… with 3 nodes: the client, the edge cloud and central cloud
… the architecture allows offloading from client to edge, edge
to cloud, and vice-versa
… A specific proposal to discuss is whether WebAssembly can
provide a unified runtime for client and edge
… this would require some extension to the WASM run time to
support the hand-over
… To implement this, we would need standardization of the API
and the communication mechanisms between the runtimes to enable
the hand-over
… This presentation is a high level proposal - my suggestion is
that the IG should develop use cases & requirements as a formal
output of the IG
… which can then help incubate a specific charter for the
standardization work
Dom: I support your suggestion to anchor the work with use
cases and requirements. The presentation is a good seed for
such a document
… I hope you can help develop that document
… Any insight from your experience around edge computing on
discovery: is an edge node available, what capabilities, do you
have the access rights to it?
… My sense is that today most of the edge infrastructure is
oriented to supporting cloud to edge rather than client to
edge. Is the other direction also being pursued in industry?
max: I have a proposal to seed the use cases doc
… re discovery from the client of the edge infrastructure
… our proposal would be to use an API with a parameter the
developer could use to point to a specific provider
… it could be a domain name or some other identity mechanism
… which would be used to orient where the offloading would
happen
… there are other ways that could be explored
Chris: thanks for the presentation - this is an area the BBC is
interested in
… a use case have is around consumer media devices where we
want to render visual scenes that may require more compute
capabalities than are available on the device
… e.g. like a game rendering done on the edge
… Are you thinking that the client device is also running a Web
browser? i.e. is this based on a Web app?
… if so, do we need to think of the transfer of input/sensor
information from the client back to the edge as input to the
computation?
Max: thanks - important use case worth including the use cases
doc
… to your question - Web application is one use case; for
native apps, they can also leverage Web technologies to enable
this kind of scenarios
… we need a standardize mechanism to enable communication
between the client and the edge
… the Web Assembly runtimes might be developed by different
vendors who would need to communicate one with another
… including security mechanisms
Song: Chris, when you talk about media devices - are you
talking about set top boxes, smart tv? or professional video
recorders?
Chris: the former
Chris: there was some work a number of years ago in the Media &
Entertainment IG on Cloud Browser technologies
[10]Cloud Browser Architecture
[10] https://www.w3.org/TR/cloud-browser-arch/
Song: I understand better the context of the use case and the
need for standardization in that space
Song: we've had similar discussions around offloading computing
… using WebAssembly as a unified runtime in this context is a
useful addition
Dom: For this specific idea of WebAssembly, there's the
Bytecode Alliance which is looking at the role WASM can take as
a computing platform
… Could be useful to reach out to them
Max: +1 to coordination on Bytecode Alliance and the W3C Web
Assembly WG
… I've discussed with @@@ - they're supportive with the
direction
… this could be extended to offloading JS to the edge as well
… if there is agreement in the direction, we can study in more
depth both approaches
Sudeep: thanks Max for the presentation - your help in driving
use cases would be very much appreciated
… one general comment - I think there is some work in the Web
of Things WG on Thing Description, and they've indicated
interest in describing Edge Nodes as Things which may help with
describing capabilities as part of the discovery process
… we can help make the connection if that's useful to leverage
… Another comment: we've also been looking at how to measure
network parameters - if you want to offload, how do you get
data about the network conditions to evaluate whether or not to
offload?
Sudeep: from the network perspective, at what level would be
you looking at? protocol / API / runtime
Max: this presentation doesn't try to go deep on the solution
space, but some initial idea we have in this space:
… the most important standardization piece is the communication
between runtime engines
… without standardization, no communication can happen, so this
is essential
… for the other parts (e.g. determining network conditions to
decide whether or not to offload), this could be left to
runtimes to assess - the specific policies could be left
implementation dependent
… app developers could have their policies that could be
matched with edge provider policies
… the standardization would be around defining the policies
… but this is an early idea, this needs a lot more discussion
Louay: thanks for the presentation - would this be only for web
apps?
… we have similar scenarios implemented using Unity Edge
Tunneling (?)
… there are lots of open questions on standardization
interfaces for communications between client & edge
… webRTC might be a protocol to consider to stream media
from/to the edge
Max: for the communication mechanism, we haven't done much
research on that, but there are plenty of candidates with
existing standards from IETF, incl WebRTC
… once we get into the solution design phase, we can compare
the various options
… in terms of the type of applications - Web apps is one
category of apps that can be supported by this proposal, but
native apps could also use this kind of approach because they
can leverage Web technologies via embedding
Sudeep: we'll create a github issue on the topic; Max, would
you be willing draft the use cases you've captured to serve as
a baseline for discussion on standardization?
Max: happy to help
<dom> i/<dom> Sudeep: welcome/Scribe+ dom/
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by
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Received on Wednesday, 8 September 2021 14:07:22 UTC