Re: White paper on the potential next steps on mobile web in developing countries

Hi Bill,

Again thanks a lot for all these ideas and potential direction to 
follow, that's a very valuable discussion for me.

Just a question. You said :
 > within your workplan I would suggest you consider a role you might
 > play in connecting those the industry interests that have contributed 
 > to W3C to additional direct input from the developing world
 > constituents.

I completely agree here and this is my exact plan. That said, after few 
years working within the mobile web initiative, i've quite a clear ideas 
about who are players and who have interests in participating in this 
work. However, being quite new in this area, i would be happy to know 
who you think are the "developing world constituents".
Is it NGO or organizations like yours (CBDD) ? is it local governments ?
is it local research centers ? i don't have a strong view about who, 
qualitatively, are the best contacts to get input and would be 
interested in participating in such a joint initiative.

Cheers,
Stephane
Gillis, Bill wrote:
> Stephane,
> 
> In my view you are doing important work.  While a bit redundant from my
> previous correspondence, I do believe one of the greatest contributions
> W3C can provide at this point is continuing your long advocacy of the
> basic principle of universal access to the web regardless of chosen
> platform, desired applications, culture, language, physical ability and
> so forth. With respect to a workplan I recommend this provide the
> foundation of your "advocacy" for improvements in usability and
> relevenace of the so called mobile technologies for the developing
> world.  Because the cultural/economic context in which small handheld
> wireless handsets are used in the developing world may be quite
> different than from the cultural/economic context in which these
> technololgies are being created for the market dominant sectors of the
> world, continuing to lay the foundation for highly affordable universal
> web access achieved through "mobile devices" is a gap in which nobody
> other than W3C is better positioned.  Specifically, within your workplan
> I would suggest you consider a role you might play in connecting those
> the industry interests that have contributed to W3C to additional direct
> input from the developing world constituents.   This could be achieved
> through strategically designed workshop held in developing world
> settings (assuming you could get good participation from industry
> representation) or also could be achieved through systematic research
> approaches that would collect better information on the
> cultural/economic context of the developing world's application of
> "mobile technologies".
> 
> Again, I think your papers are an excellent start.
> 
> bill
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stephane boyera [mailto:boyera@w3.org] 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 2:21 AM
> To: Gillis, Bill
> Cc: public-mwi-ec@w3.org; Venkatesh Choppella; Taugher, Colleen
> Subject: Re: White paper on the potential next steps on mobile web in
> developing countries
> 
> Hello Bill,
> 
> First of all, thanks a lot for your great contribution.
> Lots of very interesting thoughts on the relative importance of
> mobility, and the importance of not forgetting the other options like
> laptops. It also answers some of the questions i'm often getting about
> why we would need any specific work in this area compared to what's
> currently going on within the mobile web initiative.
> I think that i'm sharing your view on most of the topics and i tried to
> express some of those ideas in my recent papers.
> That said, i still have myself problems in translating this vision into
> an effective roadmap or work program.
> For instance, i completely agree when you are saying that the debate on
> handset should be irrelevant. We have been advocating the idea of
> universal access since early days of w3c, within initiatives like WAI. 
> The current work in MWI is following the same vision of one Web.
> However, observing the current situation, i've the feeling that a work
> is needed to enable minimal web functionalities on handsets. How to do
> that, what are those minimal functionalities to have rich web
> applications should be discussed imho. You are right that defining these
> functionalities to enable affordable, simple and rich web access is
> probably independent of the device (a phone, a laptop, a tv ...) but
> i've the feeling that to achieve some results as soon as possible we
> have to bet now on the most promising horse, which is for me now mobile
> phones.
> For me the question is to have a better, clearer view of what should be
> next actions that could move ahead and make this vision a reality.
> Cheers
> Stephane
> 
> Gillis, Bill wrote:
>>  Stephane,
>>
>> I enjoyed reading your most recent iteration "The Mobile Web to Bridge
> 
>> the Digital Divide"...very valuable contribution in my view.
>>
>> You characterized in your 2 March 07 e-mail a debate:
>>
>> "there is nothing to do, just wait one or 2 years and then the average
> 
>> mobile phone in DEveloping countries will be the same as the one we 
>> have today in the developed world"
>>
>> VS
>>
>> "we should not expect the same process taking place in the developed 
>> world (as of today, almost nobody in eg europe have a phone older than
> 
>> 2 or 3 years, and with very low capabilities ) to append in the 
>> developing world because of the grey/second hand market or because 
>> people would focus on products aimed at their market (cheap and 
>> reliable for hte specific condition). So we should expect to fit with 
>> the specific devices existing in the developing world."
>>
>> In my view one of the primary goals should be to make this debate not 
>> relevant.  I can think of little evidence to support there is a future
> 
>> where people around the world will be accessing the web in the same 
>> way, with the same devices, and for the same purposes.  That in fact 
>> is not a world of communication equity, but one where technology has 
>> dictated opportunity/access to digital capability rather than the 
>> needs of "people" which vary greatly from place to place and culture
> to culture.
>> There seems to be an assumption that simpler solutions which make 
>> potential applications on "lower end" devices are inferior to higher 
>> end "newer" technology that offers richer experiences.  Particularly 
>> at this phase where for a significant portion of the world is new to 
>> the the entire concept of digital communications, implementing 
>> strategies that rely on people around the world having "new state of
> the art technology"
>> (or at least only being one generation behind?) sets us up for
> failure.
>> Especially if the "new technology" while much richer in communication 
>> potential adds complexity and cost.
>>
>> In my view, the greatest role W3C can play in this evolving global 
>> opportunity is to advocate the greatest equality of access to web 
>> based applications across multiple devices...that is people should not
> 
>> be "left behind" because they are unable to afford or do not have 
>> access to the latest devices and people should not have to have the 
>> newest devices to benefit richly from web-based technologies.
>>
>> Another small observation is that the apparent driving force of the 
>> spread of mobile technologies in the "developing world" may be quite 
>> different than in the "developed world".  In fact the term "mobile 
>> technology" has a bit of a developed world bias in my view.  The value
> 
>> proposition of handheld wireless devices in much of the developed 
>> world hinged significantly on the mobility that those devices offer.  
>> But I would observe, that these devices are for the most part 
>> supplementary communication devices not full replacements for laptops,
> 
>> PCs and fixed line communication.  For example at the recent W3C 
>> Mobile Web workshop, most all of us had our laptops out and active 
>> even though we had cell phones in our pockets.  My sense in the 
>> developing world, is that the value proposition driving deployment of 
>> mobile communication technologies may be much more affordability.  
>> Mobile phones can be purchased more cheaply than laptops or PCs and 
>> the wireless communication systems supporting those devices are less 
>> expensive to deploy and more quickly than the fix wire option.  But I 
>> am not convinced for many first time digital users on the other side 
>> of the divide, the reason for a focus on "mobile web" is actually
> mobility.
>> I mention this for two reasons:  1) if my assumption is correct, the 
>> value proposition driving technology development in the dominant 
>> market responds to a very different consumer need than what is typical
> 
>> on the other side of the divide.  Consequently, there is no particular
> 
>> reason to think the current evolutions of technology are responsive.  
>> It is quite appropriate in my view to think about a different category
> 
>> of appropriate technololgy to respond to a need for "affordable and
> simple"
>> but rich access to digital capabilities.  One size should not fit all.
>> Also I think as W3C moves forward with this initiative, it will be 
>> important you don't lose track of other PC-based solutions as 
>> well...It may be that technology will continue to evolve in a way the 
>> PC's (or
>> laptops) will continue to be less expensive and battery storage 
>> devices will continue to leap frog in development in ways that these 
>> devices ultimately provide the low-cost rich application solution that
> 
>> is desired by many on the other side of the divide.  These 
>> technologies in combination with very inexpensive digital storage and 
>> play devices can be very powerful tools.  I really don't know this to 
>> be true or a reasonable possibility, but I think caution is 
>> appropriate to not rule it out one set of technology solutions in
> favor of a different one.
>> That is, the basic principle for people on both sides of the digital 
>> divide is that we should aim for policies and standards that allow 
>> them to access a rich array of digital opportunities using the means 
>> that is best for their own indiviudal situation and cultural context.
>>
>> Again, many thanks for advancing the debate.
>>
>> bill
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: public-mwi-ec-request@w3.org 
>> [mailto:public-mwi-ec-request@w3.org]
>> On Behalf Of stephane boyera
>> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:44 AM
>> To: public-mwi-ec@w3.org
>> Cc: 'Venkatesh Choppella'; public-mwi-ec@w3.org; 
>> jan.chipchase@nokia.com
>> Subject: Re: White paper on the potential next steps on mobile web in 
>> developing countries
>>
>>
>> [removing people from the to or cc who are in public-mwi-ec@w3.org 
>> list, just keeping Jan and Venkatesh who are not on the list. If they 
>> wish to be on it, they could drop me a mail]
>>
>> I've the feeling that there are 2 separate discussions here, and each 
>> one is important
>>
>> - About handsets and technology
>> The few messages i read on this subject here are reflecting the two 
>> major opinions i've been facing within W3C and also discussing with 
>> other organization. The 2 positions are :
>>
>> there is nothing to do, just wait one or 2 years and then the average 
>> mobile phone in DEveloping countries will be the same as the one we 
>> have today in the developed world
>>
>> VS
>>
>> we should not expect the same process taking place in the developed 
>> world (as of today, almost nobody in eg europe have a phone older than
> 
>> 2 or 3 years, and with very low capabilities ) to append in the 
>> developing world because of the grey/second hand market or because 
>> people would focus on products aimed at their market (cheap and 
>> reliable for hte specific condition). So we should expect to fit with 
>> the specific devices existing in the developing world.
>>
>> Personnaly, i've no idea who is right and what is the right approach. 
>> If analogy would work, then looking at other products may help. Eg for
> 
>> cars, one travelling in the developing world would understand that the
> 
>> timeframe for new cars to come to the developing world is perhaps 20 
>> to 30 years, and even after that time, there is still half of the cars
> 
>> which are from the older cycles. But i'm pretty sure, we can't compare
> 
>> the two markets.
>>
>> So eventually, i think that to have an idea on which of the two 
>> options we should bet to build on, it is very important to gather 
>> datas on what are the characteristics of eg 80% of the phone in eg few
> 
>> countries in south-east asia, africa and latin america.
>>
>> If somebody has an idea on how we could proceed to gather such datas, 
>> i think it would be of primary importance.
>>
>>
>>
>> - About services and audience
>>
>> It think here the discussion triggered by Ken is a bit different. 
>> Since i started working on this subject about a year ago, i think that
> 
>> i have this approach : what are the needs for the population ? That 
>> said, if i agree that the point is not to provide web access to rural 
>> communities or under-priviledged population, i don't think that we 
>> should oppose technology vs social approach.
>> I think this is the 2 parts of the same approach, and we should tackle
> 
>> the problem by both ends. my view is that by providing technologies, 
>> you
>>
>> trigger needs : that sounds like liberal consumerist view, but this is
>> not: example : who thought that sms may help rural communities before 
>> we
>>
>> saw the first applications providing services which are really useful,
> 
>> help people and imporve their daily lives ? nobody it think.
>> Now, i'm understanding that people are saying : well we have voice and
> 
>> sms service and this is enough to provide minimal services.
>> I agree that we can do something with such technology, but i do think 
>> that enabling a better technology, the web, would allow people to 
>> answer
>>
>> needs in a better way, or more approprietly. In few words, my view is 
>> that yes we should work on understanding the needs, and seeing how we 
>> could answer them with existing technology, and at the same time, we 
>> should also working at enabling better technologies for better
> answers.
>> So work for a better today and also work for an even better tomorrow 
>> at the same time :)
>>
>> (if people are interested i wrote a paper i will present at ist-africa
>> 2007 conference in hwich i'm exposing my view on why i think the 
>> mobile web is a better technology than sms : the mobile web to bridge 
>> the digital divide ?
>> http://www.w3.org/2006/12/digital_divide/ist-africa-final.pdf )
>>
>>
>> Stephane
> 

-- 
Stephane Boyera		stephane@w3.org
W3C				+33 (0) 4 92 38 78 34
BP 93				fax: +33 (0) 4 92 38 78 22
F-06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex,		
France

Received on Wednesday, 7 March 2007 16:57:34 UTC