Re: On the roadmap v2

On Oct 2, 2009, at 9:34 AM, Stephane Boyera wrote:

> Hi,
>
>> v2. I did not see the most recent version comprehensively online -  
>> if it is somewhere other than in documents on the list, please  
>> refer us to it.
> This is a wiki, which means that it is evolving quite a lot quite  
> often. Each time a new release is made, the date mentionned at the  
> top of the document change. The current latest draft is september 25.

Got it. That is the one we are working on.

>
>> Yes, I agree. Which is why we are running Mobile Tech 4 Social  
>> Change camps in now more than ten cities around the world, the  
>> model of which has been taken up by others who are organizing  
>> communities of practice; have various social media campaigns, and  
>> publish papers on a regular basis on the topic.  That is also why  
>> the Open Mobile Consortium exists, and the new m-Health Alliance  
>> that has come out of the Vodafone/UNF partnership that also has  
>> published overview materials on the state of the field, if you  
>> will.  In other words -- not mentioning the umbrella organizations  
>> that are already in existence and giving them their due place in  
>> the roadmap would be a mistake.
>
> i can surely mention these initiatives.
> In practice, for now, the challenge is still largely existing

Well, it's a lot less acute than it was given how much more  
collaboration and resources there are now.  And, I would argue, it's  
always that way in a new field, which is why we exist in the first  
place, since its inception.

>
>>>
>>>> "Recommendations"
>>>> 4.1"Share, cooperate, collaborate...."  that is what  
>>>> MobileActive's about.
>>>
>>> at least you have identified the same issue.
>> Yes, since 2005, in fact.
>> I am not sure why you are saying that quite so dismissively?
>
> :) what can i say ? i'm trying hard to be open to all comments since  
> the beginning of the group. so i don't know why i would say things  
> dismissively. So i just don't want to enter to such discussions, and  
> don't want to reproduce in this forum any kind of flame or war  
> between members, as it happens at some other places.
> The process at W3C is an open one where everybody is able to voice  
> concerns or comments. We are working based on consensus, and on a  
> vendor-neutral basis. The group of people who have been involved in  
> the development of this document since the beginning are all working  
> on tools/product/solutions related to this roadmap, and nobody, and  
> this is a rule of W3C, is trying to push its own solution/ 
> product/... but work towards making a fair assessment of the current  
> situation.

Ok.


> So now, a more detailed answer as the original was misunderstood.
> You came to the same conclusions around the need of collaboration as  
> some people in this group, and some participants of the workshops we  
> organized. I just said that this is great, and that enforce this  
> conclusion. I understand that you are working towards resolving this  
> challenge with mobileactive.org, and this is great too. There are  
> plenty of other fora existing, including MW4D, which are pursuing  
> the same goal.

Yes, but let me just say that we have some 10,000 people who are  
active in our community whereas I see this group in particular as a  
tiny group of experts who are not necessarily implementers either.  I  
am not wishing to start a flame war at all, just would like to keep  
things in perspective. The explicit goal of MobileActve.org is to  
build and grow a community of practice amongst practitioners which is  
what we are doing and have been, starting in 2005 with 40 people.  I  
do not see this as the constituency or goal of MW4D given my  
observations of the members of this group.

> Honestly, as of today, none of these fora are really successfull in  
> enabling potential users of mobile technologies to collaborate/ 
> cooperate/share experience, and we still see everyday new stories  
> starting from scratch new projects on e.g. market prices. So this is  
> still a problem, and that's why we are mentionning it.

There could be an argument made that with any new field, there is a  
need for multiple solutions where market forces in fact, sort things  
out. I would stipulate that in an immature market, like this one,  
there will be some degree of redundancy and duplication that  
consolidates as the market matures.  That is a natural phenomenon and  
not necessarily bad. That said, MobileActive with our tool database  
aims to reduce some of that redundancy by allowing anyone to search  
for appropriate applications before building a new one...


>
>> USSD costs the user in South Africa on MTN and Vodacom which are  
>> the two operators I am familiar with. Do not now about Celpay.   
>> Operators have figured out in sub-Saharan Africa that USSD can be  
>> billed for.
>> Sessions are limited to 2 minutes -- which means you can make it  
>> through about nine screens of content.
>> At 150 characters per screen, this makes for a total of  about  
>> 1,350 characters (equivalent to 8 SMSs). USSD costs the user about  
>> R4 in South Africa.
> that's interesting info. so let me summarize: operators are charging  
> the use of the USSD channel, independently of the service provider ?  
> on the eact same basis as sms: as soon as you open an ussd session,  
> you are charged R4 ?
> if this is the case, then i should surely add that in the document.

Prabhas is addressing that shortly in a separate email.  Operators are  
charging for USSD sessions in South Africa.

Services can decide whether they charge the user for their USSD  
service, at least that is true for MTN. Prabhas will elaborate.

In short, your information is outdated.  Operators have realized they  
can monetize USSD, both for vendors and end-users.

>
>>> well teh evaluation of costs is based on the current tariff  
>>> structure existing in most country. I doubt that in a phone call  
>>> of 10s you can transfer as much info as in an sms (due to among  
>>> other things the problem of lasting-information).
>>> That said, you are completely right on the fact that there are now  
>>> places where the voice call are far cheaper, and this is  
>>> mentionned in the latest draft of teh roadmap (like india as you  
>>> said)
>> Where is that located?
>
> ssection 6.1.5 costs for the end-user
> "NB: It is important to note that the references used to evaluate  
> the costs of voice applications are based on the pricing scheme  
> currently offered by operators, at the time of writing of this  
> document. However, this pricing scheme might be largely influenced  
> by the regulatory authorities, which might decide to promote voice  
> applications by enforcing low-cost, or flat-rate costs for accessing  
> such applications.

What is the source for this assertion?  Competition or regulators?   
Curious where the data is on this -- regulation affective the price of  
voice.  Would be interesting to actually reference is there is a source.

> It is also important to note that flat-rate plans for voice calls  
> (e.g. within the operator network, or during off-peak hours) are  
> starting to appear in different regions of the World. See  
> announcement of such plans in India: free unlimited calls within the  
> operator,and a pay-per-call model where people pay for a call,  
> independently of its length. "

Yes, there is a downward spiral in India for voice and hence a  
proliferation of large-scale voice services. We are writing about  
several of these now.
>
>>>
>>> we mentionned the fact that using SMS as a transport protocol is  
>>> extremely expensive for data delivery. We just separated the  
>>> difficulty to manage multi-cycle interactions as a separate issue.
>> Where is that located?
> section 7.2.2 costs and weaknesses of SMS

Got it.

Thanks.


>
> best
> Stephane
> -- 
> Stephane Boyera		stephane@w3.org
> W3C				+33 (0) 5 61 86 13 08
> BP 93				fax: +33 (0) 4 92 38 78 22
> F-06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex,		
> France

Katrin Verclas
Co-Founder and Editor
MobileActive.org
katrin@mobileactive.org
+ 1 413 687 9877
skype: katrinskaya


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