- From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
- Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 13:24:06 +0200
- To: Tadej ©tajner <tadej.stajner@ijs.si>
- Cc: "Pablo N. Mendes" <pablomendes@gmail.com>, Sebastian Hellmann <hellmann@informatik.uni-leipzig.de>, "public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org" <public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org>, "raphael.troncy@eurecom.fr" <raphael.troncy@eurecom.fr>, "Giuseppe.Rizzo@eurecom.fr" <Giuseppe.Rizzo@eurecom.fr>
- Message-ID: <CAL58czpF+yZ013GQTEYEDd4mAWkD9rcMSmiO7L4jvwbHsWgwEA@mail.gmail.com>
Thanks for your feedback, Pablo and Tadej. I would propose to handle this as implementation driven as possible - if there is somebody willing to implement the a use case in which the distinction is important, we should keep it, otherwise drop it. Best, Felix 2012/8/20 Tadej Å tajner <tadej.stajner@ijs.si> > Hi, Pablo, > correct. The feedback I got was that this distinction is very important, > but I can't think of an example with the scenario you mention. Perhaps for > spans where one is contained within the other, such as assigning a lexical > meaning to a word, while the whole phrase is an entity, for example > 'agriculture' in 'Ministry of agriculture'. > > I think it boils down to this: could this property be reliably inferred > from the target itself? For instance, if someone points to > http://www.w3.org/2006/03/wn/wn20/instances/worsense-capital-noun-3 - can > we expect that is definitely a case of lexical disambiguation? > > -- Tadej > > > > On 20. 08. 2012 11:42, Pablo N. Mendes wrote: > > Hi all, > > I would suggest to merge "its-entity-type-ident-ref" into >> "its-disambig-type-ref". > > > If I understand correctly this is the same proposal I made at the call? > > "<pablomendes> wrt. its:disambigType = (word | entity) can't the > distinction between word and entity be inferred from entityTypeRef? e.g. > wiktionary:doc is a word, dbpedia:Dog is an entity" [1] > > If so, this is the answer that Tadej gave: > > "tadej: disambiguation use cases are often used in cases where text is > short and lacks context > ... and computational lingusitic community draw a clear distinction > ebtween lexical and conceptual meaning" [1] > > Perhaps one way to test how strong is this requirement would be to think > of use cases where one could assign both lexical and conceptual meaning to > the same span. > > Cheers, > Pablo > > [1] http://www.w3.org/2012/07/26-mlw-lt-minutes.html > > > On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org> wrote: > >> Hi Sebastian, >> >> 2012/8/20 Sebastian Hellmann <hellmann@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> >> >>> Hi Felix, >>> your proposal is based on the assumption, that more data is available at >>> these three URLs: >>> >>> http:/nerd.eurecom.fr/ontology#Place >>> http://dbpedia.org/resource/Dublin >>> http://www.w3.org/2006/03/wn/wn20/instances/worsense-capital-noun-3 >>> >>> While this assumption is ok for the Semantic Web, I am not sure about >>> the ITS world. >>> >> >> >> You are right that in the "ITS world" one cannot be sure that more data >> is available. But I would argue that implementors who process links also in >> the ITS world very likely need to know (not automatically, but as a >> prerequisite for implementation ) what the URL is about. So I'd rather >> encourage implementors towards that "Semantic Web like" approach than >> defining so many attributes. >> >> Feedback from the people who want to process "disambiguation" without >> Semantic Web processing is of course very important here. >> >> >>> >>> Furthermore, if you are attempting to minimize it, I would suggest to >>> merge >>> "its-entity-type-ident-ref" into "its-disambig-type-ref". You wouldn't >>> be limited to entity types and could use any of: >>> >> >> >> Makes sense to me, thanks for the proposal - let's see what Tadej and >> others say. >> >> Best, >> >> Felix >> >> >>> >>> - http:/nerd.eurecom.fr/ontology#Place >>> - http://dbpedia.org/ontology/Place >>> - http://www.monnet-project.eu/lemon#LexicalSense >>> - http://www.monnet-project.eu/lemon#LexicalEntry >>> - http://wordnet.princeton.edu/wndatamodel#NounWordSense >>> - http://wordnet.princeton.edu/wndatamodel#Synset >>> >>> All the best, >>> Sebastian >>> >>> Am 20.08.2012 09:44, schrieb Felix Sasaki: >>> >>>> Hi Sebastian, all, >>>> >>>> thanks, Sebastian. From what you say in the wiki and in the previous >>>> mail, >>>> I think one could simplify things a lot. >>>> >>>> The HTML example from Tadej *could* look like this: >>>> >>>> <html lang="en"> >>>> >>>> <head> >>>> >>>> <meta charset="utf-8" /> >>>> >>>> <title>Entity: Local Test</title> >>>> >>>> </head> >>>> >>>> <body> >>>> >>>> <p><span >>>> >>>> its-entity-type-ident-ref="http:/nerd.eurecom.fr/ontology#Place" >>>> >>>> its-disambig-ident-ref="http://dbpedia.org/resource/Dublin >>>> ">Dublin</span> >>>> is the <span >>>> >>>> its-disambig-ident-ref=" >>>> http://www.w3.org/2006/03/wn/wn20/instances/worsense-capital-noun-3 >>>> ">capital</span> >>>> of Ireland.</p> >>>> >>>> </body> >>>> >>>> </html> >>>> >>>> That is, no explicit "resource" references for entity type and >>>> disambiguation source, and no disambig-type. >>>> >>>> Also, I think one could get rid of adding this kind of information via >>>> global rules - I really don't see a use case for that. >>>> >>>> Tadej, others, thoughts? Maybe Yves as one of the implementors >>>> processing >>>> the output and other have some thoughts too? >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Felix >>>> >>>> 2012/8/17 Sebastian Hellmann <hellmann@informatik.uni-leipzig.de> >>>> >>>> Dear Felix, >>>>> to solve this issue I prepared a page: >>>>> http://wiki.nlp2rdf.org/wiki/**DBpedia_Spotlight< >>>>> http://wiki.nlp2rdf.org/wiki/DBpedia_Spotlight> >>>>> >>>>> It is a rough draft, so there are many mistakes, still. Once it is >>>>> mature, >>>>> I will send it to the DBpedia Spotlight and Apache Stanbol lists to get >>>>> their feedback. >>>>> Note that I don't have a problem with these properties as XML >>>>> attributes, >>>>> where they can naturally occur only once and encoding an implicit >>>>> dependency (attribute refering to another attribute) is unproblematic. >>>>> They >>>>> are, however, difficult to handle in RDF, even when declaring them >>>>> functional. >>>>> I will report back, if there are any news, >>>>> >>>>> All the best, >>>>> Sebastian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Am 14.08.2012 21:34, schrieb Felix Sasaki: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Sebastian, all, >>>>>> >>>>>> August is taking its tribute ... I am wondering if there any thoughts >>>>>> on >>>>>> Sebastian's mail below. It seems that some of the proposed ITS >>>>>> attributes >>>>>> are not needed, but I don't have the competence to evaluate this. >>>>>> Thoughts >>>>>> from others? Sebastian, could you confirm that the output mentioned >>>>>> in >>>>>> this other thread >>>>>> >>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/**Public/public-multilingualweb-** >>>>>> lt/2012Aug/0168.html< >>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2012Aug/0168.html> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> is correct for NIF? I then would create a test case for our test >>>>>> suite, >>>>>> see >>>>>> >>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/**Public/public-multilingualweb-** >>>>>> lt-tests/2012Aug/0003.html< >>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2012Aug/0003.html> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Felix >>>>>> >>>>>> Am Donnerstag, 9. August 2012 schrieb Sebastian Hellmann : >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Felix, >>>>>> >>>>>>> below mostly my opinion on this. Nothing, wrong with including these >>>>>>> properties, but they might not make sense in RDF. If you think, that >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> are people who would really use these properties in RDF, then go >>>>>>> ahead >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> include them. Personally, *I* wouldn't know for what *I* could use >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>> More comments inline. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am 09.08.2012 15:20, schrieb Felix Sasaki: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> its:entityTypeSourceRef >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I really do not find this property helpful. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do you see any sense in saying that >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/resource/**** >>>>>>> Dublin <http://dbpedia.org/resource/**Dublin><http://dbpedia.org/** >>>>>>> resource/Dublin <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Dublin>>is from >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org ? In the linked data world >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/resource/ >>>>>>> **Dublin <http://dbpedia.org/resource/**Dublin< >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/resource/Dublin>> >>>>>>> comes from >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/resource/****Dublin< >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/resource/**Dublin>< >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/resource/**Dublin< >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/resource/Dublin>>. >>>>>>> So you might specify a way to convert that to ITS, but we might not >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> >>>>>>> an RDF property for this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> its:disambigType >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "(http://www.w3.org/2005/11/****its/lexicalConcept|< >>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2005/11/**its/lexicalConcept%7C> >>>>>>>> <http://**www.w3.org/2005/11/its/**lexicalConcept%7C< >>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/lexicalConcept%7C> >>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/****ontologyConcept|http://www.**w3.** >>>>>>>> <http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/**ontologyConcept%7Chttp://www.w3.** >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> org/2005/11/its/<http://www.**w3.org/2005/11/its/** >>>>>>>> ontologyConcept%7Chttp://www.**w3.org/2005/11/its/< >>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/ontologyConcept%7Chttp://www.w3.org/2005/11/its/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> entity)" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am unsure about this one. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> its:entityTypeRef >>>>>>> is already rdf:type, so it would be a duplicate to have >>>>>>> its:entityTypeRef >>>>>>> in RDF. For http://dbpedia.org/resource/****Dublin< >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/resource/**Dublin> >>>>>>> <http://dbpedia.org/**resource/Dublin< >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/resource/Dublin> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> its:**entityTypeRef would be one of: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/ontology/****PopulatedPlace< >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/ontology/**PopulatedPlace> >>>>>>> <http://dbpedia.**org/ontology/PopulatedPlace< >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/ontology/PopulatedPlace> >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/ontology/****Settlement< >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/ontology/**Settlement> >>>>>>> <http://dbpedia.org/**ontology/Settlement< >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/ontology/Settlement> >>>>>>> http://umbel.org/umbel/rc/****PopulatedPlace< >>>>>>> http://umbel.org/umbel/rc/**PopulatedPlace> >>>>>>> <http://umbel.**org/umbel/rc/PopulatedPlace< >>>>>>> http://umbel.org/umbel/rc/PopulatedPlace> >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/ontology/****Place< >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/ontology/**Place>< >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/ontology/**Place < >>>>>>> http://dbpedia.org/ontology/Place>> >>>>>>> http://umbel.org/umbel/rc/****Village< >>>>>>> http://umbel.org/umbel/rc/**Village>< >>>>>>> http://umbel.org/umbel/rc/**Village < >>>>>>> http://umbel.org/umbel/rc/Village>> >>>>>>> http://umbel.org/umbel/rc/****Location_Underspecified< >>>>>>> http://umbel.org/umbel/rc/**Location_Underspecified> >>>>>>> <http:/**/umbel.org/umbel/rc/Location_**Underspecified< >>>>>>> http://umbel.org/umbel/rc/Location_Underspecified> >>>>>>> http://schema.org/Place >>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#****Thing< >>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#**Thing> >>>>>>> <http://www.w3.org/**2002/07/owl#Thing< >>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#Thing> >>>>>>> http://www.opengis.net/gml/_****Feature< >>>>>>> http://www.opengis.net/gml/_**Feature> >>>>>>> <http://www.opengis.**net/gml/_Feature< >>>>>>> http://www.opengis.net/gml/_Feature> >>>>>>> + >>>>>>> http:/nerd.eurecom.fr/****ontology#Place< >>>>>>> http://nerd.eurecom.fr/**ontology#Place> >>>>>>> <http://nerd.**eurecom.fr/ontology#Place< >>>>>>> http://nerd.eurecom.fr/ontology#Place> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you have a Problem with this plurality. Then it might be good to >>>>>>> include an annotation property its:preferedEntityTypeRef >>>>>>> So the data is there already in RDF, the problem is rather to find a >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> to convert it back to ITS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All the best, >>>>>>> Sebastian >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Felix >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2012/8/9 Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for this, Tadej, looks good. There is just one comment I >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>> see >>>>>>> reflected: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 7) A question on the data category in general and the "rules" >>>>>>> element: >>>>>>> does it make sense to make some attributes mandatory? Currently, this >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> be valid: >>>>>>> <its:disambiguation selector="/text/body/p[@id='****dublin']/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It seems that still all metadata items / attributes are optional. Is >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> a way to be more specific about what must or must not appear >>>>>>> together, >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> is optional etc? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Felix >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2012/8/9 Tadej Stajner <tadej.stajner@ijs.si> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> thanks for the tips. I covered them, and I agree towards >>>>>>> removing the >>>>>>> local XPath, since it has very limited use. Here is another >>>>>>> incorporating >>>>>>> all these comments. >>>>>>> -- Tadej >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 8/3/2012 1:07 PM, Felix Sasaki wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Tadej, all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thanks a lot for this. Just a few comments / questions: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1) About "The information applies to the textual content of the >>>>>>> element, including child elements and attributes.": wouldn't it make >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> sense to say that this applies to only the content of the element? >>>>>>> E.g. >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> you annotate the "span" element in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <p>I have seen <span id="timbl"><span class="firstame">Tim</span> >>>>>>> <span >>>>>>> class="lastname">Berners-Lee</****span></span> in the olympics >>>>>>> opening >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ceremony</p> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You want to express disambiguation information about the "span" >>>>>>> element >>>>>>> with the "id" attribute, but not about the "id" attribute or the >>>>>>> nested >>>>>>> span elements. So inheritance probably should be: "There is no >>>>>>> inheritance". What do you think? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2) About "The Entity data category can be expressed with global >>>>>>> rules, >>>>>>> or locally on an individual element.": This should probably be "The >>>>>>> Disambiguation data category can be expressed with global rules, or >>>>>>> locally >>>>>>> on an individual element." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 3) About local markup: for other data categories, we don't have >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> "pointer" attributes as local markup, since processing of XPath in >>>>>>> local >>>>>>> markup can be very expensive. So I would propose to drop the local >>>>>>> pointer >>>>>>> attributes here too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 4) In the table at the end, "Global pointing to existing >>>>>>> information" >>>>>>> should be "yes" I think. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 5) This selector >>>>>>> <its:disambiguation selector="/text/body/p/#****dublin" ... >>>>>>> In XPath should be >>>>>>> <its:disambiguation selector="/text/body/p[@id='****dublin'] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 6) To follow the conventions from other data categories, the >>>>>>> "its:disambiguation" element should probably be called >>>>>>> "its:disambiguationRule". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 7) A question on the data category in general and the "rules" >>>>>>> element: >>>>>>> does it make sense to make some attributes mandatory? Currently, this >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> be valid: >>>>>>> <its:disambiguation selector="/text/body/p[@id='****dublin']/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 8) A question to the others in this thread (Guiseppe, Pablo, >>>>>>> Raphael, >>>>>>> Sebastian): is this a representation that makes sense to you and that >>>>>>> your >>>>>>> tools could produce? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 9) A question to the MT guys: is the way "entity and >>>>>>> disambiguation" >>>>>>> information is represented here useful for you? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Felix >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2012/8/3 Tadej Å tajner <tadej.stajner@ijs.si> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> I incorporated some comments that 'entity' was still conflated from >>>>>>> several distinct things in the data category proposal. Now, we >>>>>>> distinguish >>>>>>> between disambiguation of word sense, ontology concept and entity >>>>>>> instance. >>>>>>> Following that, it seems that 'Disambiguation' was the better name >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> data category. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for everyone's input! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- Tadej >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 02. 08. 2012 17:26, Tadej Å tajner wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Apologies -- wrong link on the previous mail. This is the >>>>>>> relevant one: >>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/****International/multilingualweb/** >>>>>>> **lt/track/actions/181< >>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/**International/multilingualweb/**lt/track/actions/181 >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> <http://**www.w3.org/International/**multilingualweb/lt/track/** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> actions/181< >>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/181 >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- Tadej >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 02. 08. 2012 17:22, Tadej Å tajner wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dipl. Inf. Sebastian Hellmann >>>>>>> Department of Computer Science, University of Leipzig >>>>>>> Events: >>>>>>> * http://sabre2012.infai.org/****mlode< >>>>>>> http://sabre2012.infai.org/**mlode>< >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://sabre2012.infai.org/**mlode <http://sabre2012.infai.org/mlode >>>>>>> >>(Leipzig, >>>>>>> Sept. 23-24-25, 2012) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> * http://wole2012.eurecom.fr (*Deadline: July 31st 2012*) >>>>>>> Projects: http://nlp2rdf.org , http://dbpedia.org >>>>>>> Homepage: http://bis.informatik.uni-**le** >>>>>>> ipzig.de/SebastianHellmann<http://leipzig.de/SebastianHellmann> >>>>>>> <htt**p://bis.informatik.uni-**leipzig.de/SebastianHellmann< >>>>>>> http://bis.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/SebastianHellmann> >>>>>>> Research Group: http://aksw.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>> Dipl. Inf. Sebastian Hellmann >>>>> Department of Computer Science, University of Leipzig >>>>> Events: >>>>> * http://sabre2012.infai.org/**mlode < >>>>> http://sabre2012.infai.org/mlode>(Leipzig, Sept. 23-24-25, 2012) >>>>> * http://wole2012.eurecom.fr (*Deadline: July 31st 2012*) >>>>> Projects: http://nlp2rdf.org , http://dbpedia.org >>>>> Homepage: http://bis.informatik.uni-**leipzig.de/SebastianHellmann< >>>>> http://bis.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/SebastianHellmann> >>>>> Research Group: http://aksw.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dipl. Inf. Sebastian Hellmann >>> Department of Computer Science, University of Leipzig >>> Events: >>> * http://sabre2012.infai.org/mlode (Leipzig, Sept. 23-24-25, 2012) >>> * http://wole2012.eurecom.fr (*Deadline: July 31st 2012*) >>> Projects: http://nlp2rdf.org , http://dbpedia.org >>> Homepage: http://bis.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/SebastianHellmann >>> Research Group: http://aksw.org >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Felix Sasaki >> DFKI / W3C Fellow >> >> > > > -- > --- > Pablo N. Mendes > http://pablomendes.com > Events: http://wole2012.eurecom.fr > > > -- Felix Sasaki DFKI / W3C Fellow
Received on Monday, 20 August 2012 11:24:35 UTC