MATF Minutes September 17, 2020

*MATF Minutes September 17, 2020
*
*Link:* https://www.w3.org/2020/09/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html

*Full text of minutes:*


  Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference


    17 Sep 2020


    Attendees

Present
    Kim_patch, JakeAbma, Kathy, Jennifer, Sukriti, Detlev
Regrets

Chair
    Kathleen_Wahlbin
Scribe
    Kim_patch


    Contents

  * Topics <https://www.w3.org/2020/09/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
     1. touch target spacing feedback
        <https://www.w3.org/2020/09/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
  * Summary of Action Items
    <https://www.w3.org/2020/09/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
  * Summary of Resolutions
    <https://www.w3.org/2020/09/17-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>


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Trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 17 September 2020


      touch target spacing feedback

Jake: minimum 44 with no pixels why not 28 in total – all those 
discussions. That gets a lot of pushback. I'm not saying I'm in favor of 
that but it seems like if we want to get something out there may be a 
target size in AA where we don't have the 44. At the moment combining 
target spacing with target size we will get all kinds of different 
questions.
... gray area is close to 44 if you are doing some kind of spacing why 
not including the minimum spacing and target size – we are going into 
circles with that

<Kathy> The size of the target for pointer inputs is at least 26 by 26 
CSS pixels unless a particular presentation of the target is essential 
to the information being conveyed.

Detlev: you've raised an important point the possibility that people 
designing this may have overlapping targets so a check checking 
individually would work, but only the top one would have the full with 
and the other three pixels less because the one on top overlaps it 
slightly. That may be a situation which is very difficult to test. I 
don't know how smart these tools are to work out target sizes in context.

It would already be difficult for them to look at spaces between – 
easier to just look at target size

Detlev: Jake and I on github the last few days discussion
... I think getting rid of all the spacing and gap thing and just having 
a target size requirement seems to be the easiest way forward and I 
think that's reflected also in some comments
... I feel a bit bad about backtracking on this, I said whatever the 
task force comes up with and then poking holes in the argument because I 
felt it wasn't quite right

<Kathy> The size of the target for pointer inputs is at least 26 by 26 
CSS pixels except when: • Equivalent: The target is available through an 
equivalent link or control on the same page that is at least 44 by 44 
CSS pixels; • Inline: The target is in a sentence or block of text; • 
User Agent Control: The size of the target is determined by the user 
agent and is not modified by the author; • Essential: A particular 
presentation of the target [CUT]

Jake: one question – say we have 28 pixels and then you have a list of 
links and they are all 28 pixels high so they would pass. I think Kathy 
you are one of the initiators – there is a problem we were trying to 
solve when we started with the pixels target spacing.
... if we have a 28 minimum size my pushback is the barrier, the user 
need, the intent of the criteria is not fulfilled. We still do not have 
that eight pixel or four pixel or whatever we agree on target size spacing
... that's not what we wanted when we started out

Kathy: the bottom line is we need to have something in there. If it 
takes getting away from all of the issues that people are posing and we 
can actually get something and because we are running out of time, then 
maybe we just go towhat I put in the IRC

<JakeAbma_> https://www.w3.org/

Detlev: what's the scenario for the first exception

Kathy: two buttons that do the same thing person can press the 
alternative button. We could have something in a sentence that was much 
smaller but we could have a bigger button that did the same thing

<JakeAbma_> https://www.nu.nl/

Kathy: in that case they didn't need to meet the minimum size for the 
first one so if there's an alternative way to do it we are fine but we 
need to have these figures target size and their

Detlev: but it's not in-line links

Kathy: yes – if there's another link somewhere in a menu that smaller is 
there another way to get to it

Jake: links, just default text links and filters on the right side of 
W3C donations etc. they will all fail, they are between 18, 19, 20

Detlev: it would be easy to increase the padding of that to meet the target

Kathy: we are trying to solve for a problem. If you have less than 26 x 
26 spacing it's difficult to touch them. I believe that no matter what 
we say in the AA that this is going to be an issue that is going to be 
de-prioritized and in a legal setting would not come up as something 
that is blocking a person with a disability necessarily
... and so I think we shouldn't be necessarily concerned about things 
that are existing but things that we are moving forward in design
... I don't think 26 x 26 is an unreasonable size

Detlev: the headings for a CSS person it would be five minutes of work 
changing the padding and it wouldn't even change the visuals of this, so 
maybe that's acceptable

Jake: but lots of websites will fail
... it's not that I don't want to I just mentioned that almost all are 
26 – we should just be aware

Detlev: there's precedent – hover, close, escape, auto complete, lots of 
sites that don't do

Jake: maybe that's why we are here

Kathy: I think if the site is optimized for mobile they will have 
already solved for this. This is just extending it to the target sizes

Jennifer: the equivalent part makes me a little bit uncomfortable but I 
think that's just because I'm used to doing native mobile development 
where it's not recommended to have two targets that do the same thing.

Kathy: what if we took that one out? We could just leave that at a AAA 
level.

Detlev: I would like it very much to have it in because I fear that we 
get a situation where people do the main navigation with very compressed 
drop downs – 20 lists which are close together and just in order to meet 
this they have a content site map at the very bottom of the page where 
they have the same links widely spaced and that wouldn't help anyone
... I'd rather get rid of it and then respond if people say there's 
something needed, but I wouldn't go for right now
... recommending take it out of AA and see how it goes. I'd rather 
recuse the default size to accommodate concerns that it cannot be done 
or think of some way of having an exception for having targets – is it 
possible and useful to have the option to have those 26 pixels where it 
cannot be shared
... it makes it more complex though so maybe it's not a good idea to 
bring that in as an alternative

Kathy: I'm fine with taking it out

Kathy so that leaves in line, user agent control, and essential

Kathy: and this is just target size AA, not spacing
... I never expected to have this much pushback on it. But I would 
rather have something in there the nothing

Detlev: argument that designers will make the targets very small and 
argument that drop downs get really really long because the list issues 
need spacing – I think that's a real usability issue as well on a small 
screen if you have a longer drop-down having 44 with spacing makes it 
really really wide
... even overlapping where you reduce the text size, but that's not a 
solution. So I think they had a point

Sukriti: I don't quite agree that designers would make those choices – 
some of the pushback was about people are going to try to navigate 
around this by making the actual targets much smaller and then having 
the spacing – I don't buy that that will be a side effect

<Kathy> Target Size (AA) The size of the target for pointer inputs is at 
least 26 by 26 CSS pixels except when: • Inline: The target is in a 
sentence or block of text; • User Agent Control: The size of the target 
is determined by the user agent and is not modified by the author; • 
Essential: A particular presentation of the target is essential to the 
information being conveyed.

Sukriti: agree that getting something is better than nothing

Jennifer: I would hope that the designer would be these don't fit on the 
mobile device that means our design is bad. I would hope that is what a 
designer would do.

Detlev: I've seen some bad apps

Jennifer: especially old apps

Jake: I'm sure if our teams can fix it by making a tweak they will do it

Kathy: I was responding to just the last thread on the target definition 
where Alister had brought up– on spacing

Jake: I know we had done something on focus. In this case since we have 
legacy wording and target spacing, can we refurbish for silver

Detlev: you suggest to have that as a AAA requirement?
... wording purely based on target spacing, at least use that for AAA

Jake: basic separate criteria, then when we do silver target size, extra 
credit if it's bigger or add spacing
... but if we don't we don't have it out there

Kathy: maybe what I sent out to everybody as a response to that is just 
that the mobile accessibility test forces recommending the following 
changes to the target spacing
... first, change AA requirement to a target size of 26 x 26 with the 
three exceptions
... then move a version of the target spacing to AAA

Detlev: do we have a sufficient technique for the AAA target size? We 
would need one.
... I wonder whether it should also say something about the stacking 
issue. As developers Sukriti, Jennifer, is this something developers 
would do

Jennifer: this isn't something they would do – maybe on smaller devices 
you get overlap because they didn't do proper testing with dynamic type 
turned on

Jake: I know I've done tricks like that to make mobile – start tweaking 
some margins if you don't spend time doing much on accessibility
... but we can probably fix that by just saying a target should not overlap
... they may overlap the actual clickable area should still be

Sukriti: for things like tables if there's alignment issues it seems 
like some of the areas could overlap – it would be bad design, but it 
could work that way

Kathy: what if we said the target spacing is at least eight CSS pixels 
for each target smaller than 36 pixels in both height and width where 
the areas do not overlap except when in-line and essential

Detlev: so four pixels all around, if two of them touch that would be 
eight pixels

<Kathy> Target spacing is at least 4 CSS pixel target spacing for each 
target smaller than 36 by 36 CSS pixels where the areas do not overlap; 
except when:

<Kathy> Target spacing is at least 4 CSS pixel target spacing around the 
target for each target smaller than 36 by 36 CSS pixels where the areas 
do not overlap; except when:

<Kathy> Target spacing is at least 4 CSS pixel around the target for 
each target smaller than 36 by 36 CSS pixels where the areas do not 
overlap; except when:

Sukriti: we run into again the area between 36 and 24. The last time we 
had a better wording for avoiding that corner case between 36 and 24

<Kathy> For each target that has a width or height less than 44 CSS 
pixels, the target area has a width and height of at least 24 CSS pixels 
with a minimum spacing on the height and width of 4 CSS pixels where the 
spacing cannot overlap, except when: • Inline: The target is in a 
sentence or block of text; • Essential: A particular presentation of the 
target is essential to the information being conveyed.

Jake: if we just mention that it is at least 34 pixels but the total is 44.

Sukriti: we had a somewhat reasonable wording for it last time

Kathy: if we go back to that –

Detlev: we wouldn't need any reference to the target size now because 
that's covered by another success criterion

<Kathy> The target area has a width and height of at least 24 CSS pixels 
with a minimum spacing on the height and width of 4 CSS pixels where the 
spacing cannot overlap, except when:

Detlev: it should kick in at a target size smaller than 36

Sukriti: remove the size requirement and leave the rest the same…

<Sukriti> For each target that has a width or height less than 44 CSS 
pixels, targets have a minimum spacing on the height and width of 4 CSS 
pixels where the spacing cannot overlap, except when: • Inline: The 
target is in a sentence or block of text; • Essential: A particular 
presentation of the target is essential to the information being conveyed.

<Kathy> Targets have a minimum spacing on the height and width of 4 CSS 
pixels where the spacing cannot overlap, except when:

Jennifer: …where the spacing cannot overlap except when the target 
height and width is already 44 pixels

Sukriti: tthat's just the 44 case

<Kathy> Target Spacing (AAA) Targets have a minimum spacing on the 
height and width of 4 CSS pixels where the spacing cannot overlap, 
except when: • Large Size: The total width and height exceeds 44 by 44 
CSS pixels; • Inline: The target is in a sentence or block of text; • 
Essential: A particular presentation of the target is essential to the 
information being conveyed.

Kathy: we have a AAA, so we can't have a requirement exceeding 44 x 44 
because then there's a conflict

Jake: mention in the note for targets between 36 and 44
... is it possible to add the gray area exceptions in the note because 
that would be normative – for targets between 36 and 43 pixels it 
doesn't need to exceed 44.

Sukriti: the question we should try to answer is the current wording – 
is it unclear or ambiguous

Detlev: conflict with extra requirements tackling situations where the 
target is smaller
... that's the main issue. It could work on AA as an additional 
requirement by don't think on AAA

Sukriti: should we suggest this one is a AA instead of a AAA?

Detlev: possibly – I think it makes more sense. It's better

<Kathy> Target Size (AA) The size of the target for pointer inputs is at 
least 26 by 26 CSS pixels except when: • Inline: The target is in a 
sentence or block of text; • User Agent Control: The size of the target 
is determined by the user agent and is not modified by the author; • 
Essential: A particular presentation of the target is essential to the 
information being conveyed. Target Spacing (AA) Targets have a minimum 
spacing on the height and[CUT]

Sukriti: are we back to square one from next week where we were at 24 
but now we were at 26 but with spacing?

Kathy: I think we should just do the target size.
... anybody disagree with that

no disagreements

<scribe> *ACTION:* Kathy will send out just target size

<trackbot> Created ACTION-87 - Will send out just target size [on 
Kathleen Wahlbin - due 2020-09-24].


    Summary of Action Items

*[NEW]* *ACTION:* Kathy will send out just target size


    Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2020/09/17 16:02:32 $


**___________________________________________________________

Kimberly Patch
(617) 325-3966
kim@scriven.com <mailto:kim@scriven.com>

www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly

PatchonTech.com <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
@PatchonTech
www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
___________________________________________________