MATF Minutes January 16, 2020

*MATF Minutes January 16, 2020

Link: https://www.w3.org/2020/01/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
* *
Text:*


  Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference


    16 Jan 2020


    Attendees

Present
    Kim_Patch, Jennifer, Kathy, Detlev, Marc
Regrets

Chair
    Kathleen_Wahlbin
Scribe
    Kim_Patch


    Contents

  * Topics <https://www.w3.org/2020/01/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
  * Summary of Action Items
    <https://www.w3.org/2020/01/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
  * Summary of Resolutions
    <https://www.w3.org/2020/01/16-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>


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Kathy: update on dragging?

Detlev: difficult to find implementations – most of what I found is not 
accessible in the sense that we would want to see with the new dragging 
success criteria
... search for accessible dragging, some offer keyboard support
... got some examples from our request – pasted the link to the doc 
page. One is a digital scratchpad, can activate with , move around with 
arrow keys. There is some degree of keyboard accessibility built in but 
nothing I can see that would support pointer alternatives
... the only thing I've sort of scene which would sort of meet 
single-point activation, code pen change the order of elements in a 
list, vertical list by dragging or by changing a number in front of that 
list item, so it jumps to the top if you go to the third or fourth one 
and put in one in that position. It's not very user-friendly experience
... I've seen another implementation but I can't find – when you focus 
appendixes or extensions of that item and you can click on those to move 
one position up, you have to repeat to move it all the way up

One app that lets you change the order of paragraphs is Editorial

Kathy: were talking about dragging alternative and particular any examples

Mark: I'll put a ping out on our slack to see if there's something we 
have like that that's available externally

Detlev: need to hunt down application where you can select items and 
move them across with little arrows

Kathy: there was an example under form stock a little while ago – Ill look

Detlev: I also put out a request on Twitter – didn't get anything back

Kathy: is there still questions on this one as to whether the working 
group is thinking about adding to 1.2?

Detlev: examples are important, could be designer pushback because this 
is tricky – making it keyboard accessible is one thing but adding extra 
alternative ways of moving things about is overhead – maybe it can be 
done elegantly, it might be a nice design exercise to do it in a way 
that feels natural and not like a burden
... the one good exampl requires a keyboard, although not a physical 
keyboard. It would probably qualify but is not the nicest example
... If we also find an implementation of moving up and down with 
triangles, and a good slider bar implementation – maybe increment 
buttons on either side or tap the track at any point, if that were the 
case that would meet dragging
... I'll look some more, hope that others will also find more

Marc: are you trying to find actual live working apps, or just sites 
that give examples

Detlev: both would be good to have
... keyboard examples are good, but that doesn't help with pointer 
alternatives
... I'm not sure if this would be universally welcome and help lots of 
people. I've had some discussion with people with motor impairments 
asking about the need for dragging and they said – three of them said 
with some pride oh yes we can do this. It's possible, but difficult. 
Swipe motions are difficult.

IOS 13 allows you to attach speech commands to any gestures

Might have to set things up custom, though

Detlev: if you couldn't specify in advance from where to where you want 
to drag – Maybe just works with more generalized
... web examples or app examples?

I just know of Examples, but there are a bunch of them with the 
triangles changing sort order

I can spend more time looking for more examples

Detlev: I can spend more time looking for more examples

Kathy: education – best answer putting things in order, also surveys 
implementations with drag-and-drop where you have to order thing – 
survey monkey or form stack or maybe one of the other form tools will 
have an example that will have an alternative that will work

Jennifer: we should look at the forms as well
... Google forms
... Gethub projects or Zenhub you can drag issues from one project to 
another, but as far as I know Zenhub doesn't have an alternative

Kathy: I thought IBM had an example – but that was probably a long time ago
... we're just looking for examples where you can drag it but you have 
an alternative

Marc: I'll look – keyboard examples, not sure keyboard plus alternative. 
Without having to tab tab tab being able to select from a menu of how I 
want something to move

Detlev: nice to have different approaches, pop-up menu for drop 
locations or arrow moving it to the next position. That could also be 
horizontal if you think of for silos as soon as you focus it you get the 
left or right arrow if there is something left or right to move it to 
and it would just jump to the next one to click that arrow

Kathy: why don't we just go and try and look at some of the examples – 
all go into survey monkey to see if I can find some there.
... let's take a few minutes to see if we can find

Jennifer: I found an alternative to dragging, putting it in Google doc

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13QWLthBoEU6xuJQ4UrYOwuvJp0a42Z70JRjAsjtv1m4/edit

Jennifer: you can move issues in Zenhub selecting lets you open up a 
little modal that lets you move it
... the Zenhub help shows this

Kathy: you can also create a free demo, so we could set one up

Detlev: it's only valid for 14 days

you could set up long enough to make a video

Jennifer: the help has some screen shots
... the help URL is in the document

Kathy: they do have a free account, for public, so we could create an 
example we can point to
... or if we can find a public repository they've created

Detlev: that's a good starting point. If we have a couple more it's 
starting to look feasible

Kathy: here's another
... we should set up our own free account and then we can give the log 
into it

Detlev: it would be useful to have a short screen cast that shows what 
the issues are

Jennifer: if we had a WCAG example I could do something with that

Kathy: If you're okay with setting up a free personal one that would work

Jennifer: WCAG has github issues that are public– I might be able to 
create a zenhub with those issues to show this – I can do that

<scribe> *ACTION:* Jennifer to create Zenhub account that shows 
Alternative dragging example

<trackbot> Created ACTION-82 - Create zenhub account that shows 
alternative dragging example [on Jennifer Dailey - due 2020-01-23].

Kathy: Touch target examples –overall size is touch target plus spacing 
between targets
... if you have time this week to find examples that would be good, and 
then we can go from there. If people have examples we can look at now we 
can discuss those
... I'm gonna go look at the sizes on Amazon

Detlev: people have a way of doing a heading link, heading link small so 
it doesn't meet touch target by itself, user experience is good but the 
CSS match might point to a fail. If we have a hope that this can be 
tested automatically this might be a potential false positive

Kathy: spacing between and looking at the overall size. We do have an 
editor's note so we can get additional feedback.
... this one in particular we still have some challenges – important to 
get some overall feedback still

Detlev: agree, I think it's a good one. I think it's one where automated 
testing will give you good hints on possible failures but not rely on 
for failures

Kathy: research on how AI can do more on web analysis – Microsoft 
research – maybe today we can't do it but it might be possible to make 
it automatic later especially if we can expose more of that information
... if there is a site out there where we have good spacing between 
touch targets – we could list some of those examples. Out of all of the 
ones that we have this is more likely to change
... with that I think it's a good stopping point for today – happy that 
we were able to get examples for all of these now – thanks for the 
dragging example
... Zenhub free account that doesn't expire after 14 days is for public 
area– it's public, but we don't care about keeping it private

Jennifer: I'll just create a test repository

Kathy: see what you can do on that and report back next week and if you 
can't do it this way will figure out another way

Detlev: we should let them know we have examples

Kathy: I'll inform them

Detlev: if we have something by the next call would be useful

Marc: if you have trouble I can use one of our repositories
... But keyboard doesn't work on the Mac. If mouse clicking is fine, 
works. I wonder if Trello might be another example. I'll check it out

<scribe> *ACTION:* Kathy will send a note to Alister to let them know we 
have an example for dragging

<trackbot> Created ACTION-83 - Will send a note to alister to let them 
know we have an example for dragging [on Kathleen Wahlbin - due 2020-01-23].


    Summary of Action Items

*[NEW]* *ACTION:* Jennifer to create Zenhub account that shows 
Alternative dragging example
*[NEW]* *ACTION:* Kathy will send a note to Alister to let them know we 
have an example for dragging


    Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2020/01/16 17:02:03 $


Kimberly Patch
(617) 325-3966
kim@scriven.com <mailto:kim@scriven.com>

www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly

PatchonTech.com <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
@PatchonTech
www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
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