MATF Minutes June 13, 2019

*MATF Minutes June 13, 2019 link: 
https://www.w3.org/2019/06/13-mobile-a11y-minutes.html

*


    13 Jun 2019


    Attendees

Present
    Kim_Patch, JakeAbma, Kathy, Marc, Detlev
Regrets

Chair
    SV_MEETING_CHAIR
Scribe
    Kim_Patch


    Contents

  * Topics <https://www.w3.org/2019/06/13-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#agenda>
     1. instructions for Gestures or movement
        <https://www.w3.org/2019/06/13-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#item01>
  * Summary of Action Items
    <https://www.w3.org/2019/06/13-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ActionSummary>
  * Summary of Resolutions
    <https://www.w3.org/2019/06/13-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#ResolutionSummary>


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TOPIC discussing path based gestures

Jake: reason for not including some – added definition – in 2017 there 
was a definition given for path based gestures and that definition was 
why it didn't fit, we already had consensus of that definition

Detlev: but that definition never entered the normative text

Jake: right – is not part of WCAG
... but we have a gap. Problem is because we had a consensus two years 
ago, we can put definition in. Acknowledgment that there's a gap that 
needs to be filled, may be in 2.2

<JakeAbma> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/758

Detlev: if we end up with another success criterion 2.2 that fills this 
gap be very close – seems like that's not the best from a user 
perspective. I personally think if something has not entered the 
normative text, even if it was agreed at some time – there can be a 
change of understanding. I think many people didn't have a detailed 
understanding of the whole pointer issue then.
... definition was a good starting point. We have one now that may be 
technically precise but better if it's more understandable.
... swiping on a screen is more than just endpoints. There is more to 
movement of finger on screen or movement of mouse than and points.

Detlef: if many people are several people think this is something, need 
to step forward

Jake: haven't seen a draft for 2.2 yet. The alternative would cover more 
scenarios. On basis of purely the documentation right now and the 
consensus, that was the reason to go in this direction.

Detlev: maybe there's a benefit of having a separate one for dragging – 
anything that can be dragged.
... I see these things is quite strongly related

Jake: it would be really hard to explain

Detlev: not just what happens as you move across the screen, but also 
what happens as you move, list etc. and that is something that the user 
observes while carrying out that gesture

<MarcJohlic> I think this is the current list of proposed 2.2 SCs 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11IKqjRFvkRd2dAfUiyc5whhB3yIYXvSiirWct7KQIB0/edit#gid=0

Detlev: the gesture, the observed reaction on screen. The second part is 
missing
... where the element picked up has some constrained part on the screen 
– doesn't matter so much where your finger is moving but if the element 
is moving in a constrained way it would count – I think that would've 
been a clear separation
... for when to provide single point actuation options.

Kathy: we should figure out what Mike is doing – we don't want to repeat 
work but we need to address our concerns.

Marc: will contact him about it

Kathy: we'll see what comes from that – if we hear back from Mike we can 
have it on the agenda for next week to talk about further and see how we 
can close that gap

<JakeAbma> 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ouVFq4w-i0rchNHtTAG_JoRwHfYm9mN2MkxFBct1JSI/edit#heading=h.mntlv4jvrc29

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Q9md2AvmeTgvsT9GB62BsGvCaalDGtE6

Here's the the whole folder

<JakeAbma> 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GxutRXupqoe3vslytmKZ4ejJsfmLMay5UZrRmUBFQeU/edit#heading=h.77j91aoouakk


      instructions for Gestures or movement

Discussion about important that people are able to discover without 
instructions and have instructions – best world is instructions that 
don't get in the way of discovery without instructions

Detlev: need examples

Kathy: electric readout that's telling you the different commands on the 
page rather than having overlay of help. We have to be a little careful 
– that's an area where things evolve continuously. We started with 
having overlays. We need to see where things are and what you can do – 
vibrating item – there are tons of different ways that are popping up to 
make things discoverable.
... we need to give those scenarios where those instructions are needed

Jake: coach marks – show you where the information is a little bit 
focused on specific parts of the page, just highlight certain parts. So 
you don't have all the help information always but you have one place 
where you re-trigger the coach marks – that's another way of providing 
instructions

Detlev: the question is would you really want to fail content if it's 
well structured and easy to understand and everything and had a complex 
gesture that made it easy to learn by just trying out
... I'm not sure whether requiring these instructions to be present and 
available can be made AA I wouldn't know whether to stop – maybe for new 
things but every possible page – where would you stop

Kim: difficult to tell what's difficult for any given person cognitively 
or physically

Detlev: assuming this is about custom gestures. I thought it was what we 
used to call complex gestures, swiping, double tap, multipoint gestures 
– things like that

Jake: I'm not sure if we have the definition yet for what we understand 
as complex gestures. is a double tap complex gesture

Detlev: it could be a good case including something that's also 
considered a single-point activation – holding down for more than three 
seconds on a word you get a pop-up dialog for adding a ,comment things 
like that

Jake: example, extra options if you hold down on a key, someone was 
talking about iOS example with the space bar

Kim: two examples – one has been around for a long time, that's a double 
tap on the space bar to get a period. More recent example has been in 
the operating system for a couple of revs, but in my experience a lot of 
people don't know about it – haven't discovered it. Long press on the 
space bar turns the keypad into a trackpad, so you can move the cursor 
in text above keeping your hand in the keyboard area. And then also if 
you tap with anoth[CUT]
... doing that it turns from moving to selecting. It makes navigating 
and selecting text easier – it's a great feature, but doesn't seem like 
it's easy to discover.

Kathy: pickup with this SC next time


    Summary of Action Items


    Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]
___________________________________________________

Kimberly Patch

www.redstartsystems.com <http://www.redstartsystems.com>
- making speech fly

PatchonTech.com <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
@PatchonTech
www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kimpatch>
___________________________________________________